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Q: Five year work visa situation

 

Hi forum users,

 

I have a query about this whole new visa policy which took place this year and would like your input on my existing situation.  I have been on a Z work visa for a few years and once I hit the five year mark I will have to return back to my country. 

 

Due to settling down in China and actually making a nice home for myself, I do not want to depart but feel I have no choice as my local PSB has confirmed I must leave once I have done five years and can return after 12 months away.  However I have a thought which might mean nothing or it could be a way staying in China legally, after a 5 year work visa I am considering moving to another province and instead of being employed, study instead on an X visa which I believe is a student visa.  Now I am not sure of this is a good idea or a terrible one but I have more to lose by leaving my job, home, friends etc for 12 months then returning as a lot can happen and change in 12 months time.  A friend has offered a solution which is to get married to a Chinese national but that for me is a no no, I cannot marry for the sake of staying in China, and personally morally it is totally the wrong reason for me to stay.

 

So I am on this forum to get insight, advice or any suggestions from fellow expats, Chinese or anyone who can shed any light on this situation and would appreciate genuine advice.

10 years 22 weeks ago in  Visa & Legalities - China

 
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@ Iron man who are you calling a fool!  You should be careful with your attitude and rash judgements.     Foolish people are the ones who have limited small thinking.  Those who think their lives and families lives revolve around one particular place, one particular industry or career.    Yes,  you can call me a fool I dont mind but I know that I am not limited and neither is anybody else.    Everybody has choices.   Life does not end if a person choose or can not live or work in China anymore.     Just like you I am also married to a Chinese person and I have family also, her family but unlike you I think bigger and dont limit myself nor live in constant fear.     You better be careful who you call a fool.    God might allow somebody out there to humble you.      Have a nice life.

ironman510:

Know your limits doubleaa, I will call you a fool because you think too big. I am down on earth in reality, I know what will happen if I left China. Ok what happens if your big thinking and dream plan doesn't work? Who gets hurt? Yes your loved ones, Ok Ok, I'll say this, IF you have the power to change your life good, but not all us do, nor is there a door for a whole family to walk through together. Your thinking is single minded and much more rash then mine.

10 years 21 weeks ago
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doubleaa:

With God all things are possilbe.  If you can believe.?

10 years 21 weeks ago
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CARLGODWIN1983:

Let us not all fall out over all this ok?

 

People are here for different reasons etc.  It's actually good to vent to other foreigners, for what it's worth.  It's far better than complaining to your wife or girlfriend, which is what I couldn't help but do sometimes.

 

No need to threaten each other ok?

 

 

10 years 21 weeks ago
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10 years 21 weeks ago
 
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What field are you in? According to Guangzhou's standards, this rule only applies to techies and not others. Usually, the 5-year rule is only brought up for people that they want to get rid of (as in the school, not the local gov't and they don't really give a crap). Was it "really" the local PSB who told you (personally) that or hearsay? 

ironman510:

Yeah, really? Hearsay or did a PSB officer really tell you directly, this is my first time to ever hear about such a rule.

10 years 22 weeks ago
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10 years 22 weeks ago
 
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they enforce the five year rule in shandong for the same school for five years but if you changed schools, you can stay longer, shandong pay is not so good but i know 3 schools that could hire you and get you a visa.

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10 years 22 weeks ago
 
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Strange in Shenzhen, I've been working for the same school for 7 years and in a row, never left. And I just renewed my visa in July, never heard of this problem nor was I told to leave..

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10 years 22 weeks ago
 
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It appears their is such a rule, it has something to do with a tax break. Whatever the relationship is to that.

ironman510:

Re: 5 Years in China - Is the Rule still the same?

Postby CoffeeHawk_0 » Sat May 01, 2010 6:52 pm

you don't HAVE to leave, but if you stay, you'll have to pay full taxes here

so, leave for 32 days and come back and the 5 year clock resets

10 years 22 weeks ago
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ironman510:

So from waht I gather, IF you are willing to pay higher taxes, you can stay. MAYBE. You have to ask.

 

This guy from 2010 said this:

From what i've heard, you will also be taxed as a chinese e.g instead of the 4800rmb tax free, it will be 3500rmb.

 

Again, I'm not sure if this will be an option.

10 years 22 weeks ago
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ironman510:

the answer about the limit of 5 years in China

Postby RockyZ » Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:37 pm

from a consultant: "Once an expatriate individual has lived in China continuously for more than five consecutive years, he or she must pay individual income tax on his or her 'worldwide income', i.e. all income derived from within and from outside China, for every full year spent in China, beginning in the sixth year.

For individual income tax purposes, an individual is considered to have been resident in China continuously for five years if he or she has been present in China consecutively for a full year in each of the past five years, excluding temporary absences of less than 30 days on a single trip or an aggregate period of less than 90 days in a calendar year. It means in any calendar year of the 5 years, if the individual stayed outside of China for more than 30 days on a single trip or an aggregate period of more than 90 days, the 5-year residency will be broken." :!: :!:

 

10 years 22 weeks ago
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10 years 22 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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I've heard of the five year rule, but it is not always enforced. It depends how much guangxi your school/employer has with the PSB.

ironman510:

Your answer makes logical scene, at least in theory.. I guess we get a 50/50 chance.

10 years 22 weeks ago
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Rin:

Also, I had this happen to a friend and he just took a job in HK for a year and came back, which may be more feasible then going home.

10 years 21 weeks ago
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ironman510:

So we don't really need to go to our home country? We can work in another country, Then come back? I really wouldn't want to step foot back in the U.S with a dry job market..

10 years 21 weeks ago
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Rin:

Yeah, he was just told he needed to leave China for a year then he could come back.

On the other hand another friend in the same city has been there for eight years, renewing his visa no problem ( in a different company ) This was in Hebei.

''What's good for the goose isn't always good for the gander'' as they say!

I was also told it could be possible to switch to another type of visa for a year, IE. Leave your employment and go study for a year. There seems to be ways around everything.

10 years 21 weeks ago
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10 years 22 weeks ago
 
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in my opinion , five years are enough , you should go to a better country than china , and descouver another world , or marry a chinesegirl !

ironman510:

I'm an American, life in SHenzhen has been perfect for me, marriage, family and working life are wonderful. So why do you think some of us need to go to a so called better country? Thats sick. China is a great Country.. You don't like "ayoub" Then get the hell out! I'll help kick you out free of charge.

10 years 22 weeks ago
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CARLGODWIN1983:

Ironman,

 

you need to compromise.

 

For you, with a happy family etc, it may be good.

 

I am also in SHenzhen, and SHenzhen is probably the best ciy in China.  That being said, it does get boring here without a doubt.

 

Finally, some of us are genuinely fed-up with the sht here, and want to get out, but became tied.  

 

Not everyone is like you.  Whilst some may be short-sighted as to why some stay here, some are also short-sighted as to why people want to get out.

 

I am not a backpacker.  I came to China for someone.  Married here, had a son, and then divorced.  I went home and then came back.  Next time I go home, I have decided I won't come back.

 

I have done well her on occasion, but I have been lied to many times and I am tired of this and all the false opportunities etc.

10 years 22 weeks ago
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ironman510:

No one said you had to stay, I know how you feel, I've met a lot of people who are tired of the BS in China..

 

I'm sorry if my good life in China makes you feel worse, but again you chose to come back, and I understand why, so you must be mature enough to see past all the BS.

 

I'll admit, it takes a lot of practice..I mean a lot.. They're are day where I want to just get out of my car and yell at the driver behind me, I hate not being able to lash out, but I find ways to relax. To survive in China you must find ways to relax yourself.

 

Maybe we can meet up one night at COCO. It sounds like we got in common life wise.

10 years 21 weeks ago
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CARLGODWIN1983:

Indeed Ironman.

 

I agree with all that you say.  However, there is more.

 

Now, wait until I get past a few things next week and then, yes, we can meet up.  

10 years 21 weeks ago
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10 years 22 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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Strange, I know people who have been here over 10 years on a z visa and have no problem.

 

i think you have been told wrong.

ironman510:

I hope so, I hope this is all wrong, another friend of mine told me that his friend from France finished his 5th year here in Shenzhen and was told to leave for 6 weeks, The company called and tried to find away to keep him, but they said they needed 60,000 for a "Guanxi" to fix it..

 

My school couldn't help of course, it's not their style to go out of their way to help us when we're worried..

 

So my wife will go down to the labor department and PSB to ask these question:

 

1. Is this true, we must leave after 5 years or more of working at the same company?

 

2. What happens to married couples that are married to Chinese, with investments like a house and having children here.

 

3. Can we just accept and be taxed after 3500 instead of 4800, ( At least this was an option in 2010.)

 

4. Can switching jobs restart the 5 year clock?

 

After my wife finds out, I'll post it here for everyone. I think Shenzhen can be the same for many big cities.

10 years 21 weeks ago
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10 years 21 weeks ago
 
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@ Iron man who are you calling a fool!  You should be careful with your attitude and rash judgements.     Foolish people are the ones who have limited small thinking.  Those who think their lives and families lives revolve around one particular place, one particular industry or career.    Yes,  you can call me a fool I dont mind but I know that I am not limited and neither is anybody else.    Everybody has choices.   Life does not end if a person choose or can not live or work in China anymore.     Just like you I am also married to a Chinese person and I have family also, her family but unlike you I think bigger and dont limit myself nor live in constant fear.     You better be careful who you call a fool.    God might allow somebody out there to humble you.      Have a nice life.

ironman510:

Know your limits doubleaa, I will call you a fool because you think too big. I am down on earth in reality, I know what will happen if I left China. Ok what happens if your big thinking and dream plan doesn't work? Who gets hurt? Yes your loved ones, Ok Ok, I'll say this, IF you have the power to change your life good, but not all us do, nor is there a door for a whole family to walk through together. Your thinking is single minded and much more rash then mine.

10 years 21 weeks ago
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doubleaa:

With God all things are possilbe.  If you can believe.?

10 years 21 weeks ago
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CARLGODWIN1983:

Let us not all fall out over all this ok?

 

People are here for different reasons etc.  It's actually good to vent to other foreigners, for what it's worth.  It's far better than complaining to your wife or girlfriend, which is what I couldn't help but do sometimes.

 

No need to threaten each other ok?

 

 

10 years 21 weeks ago
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Now That we're done reading doubleaa fool reply.  My wife found out that sad but true, yes the 5 year law is back in full swing 2013 July 1st.. I got the Chinese and I will translate it:

 

 

 

国家外国专家局、财政部外国

文教专家工资和生活待遇管理办法

第十九条
外国文教专家连续在华工作一般不得超过五年,再次应聘来华工作须在两年以后。

State Administration of Foreign Experts Affairs, Foreign Ministry

Cultural and educational experts wages and living conditions management approach

Article XIX
Continuous foreign experts working in China generally not exceed five years, once again required candidates to work in China after two years.

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10 years 21 weeks ago
 
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Another girl who has this problem got a really go reply that might shine some light on the 5 year rule:

 

在中国居住了五年后,你将所有收入(工资,投资收益,特许权使用费,租金等),不论它的来源或支付欠税。你会欠个人所得税在所有世界各地的收入。现在你只欠个人所得税收入来自中国或中国实体支付。
After residing in China for five years, you will owe tax on all income (wages, investment income, royalties, rents etc) regardless of it's source or from where it was paid.  You will owe IIT on all world wide income.  Now you only owe IIT on income sourced from China or paid by a China entity.

 

So only god knows how much a person would with the common standard salary of teaching at let's say: oh Y12,000 x 5 years = what in Taxes owed?  Anyone good at tax math..

cooter:

Ehhh, my interpretation of what they said, is that after residing in China for 5 years, from that point forward, they will owe taxes on all future income.  I don't think they're going to retroactively tax the previous 5 years' worth of earnings....that would be ludicrous (and yet, almost par for the course in China )

10 years 21 weeks ago
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ironman510:

God I hope your right, so IF you're right thats means nothing changes because I don't have any other income outside of china.

10 years 21 weeks ago
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CARLGODWIN1983:

If it helps, it is on future earnings.  It will be determined by which tax year this starts in, bearing in mind, China's tax year is Jan - Dec, and not Apr to March as is the case in the UK.

 

What I will say on top of this, is this;

 

As a Sole-Trader in the UK, I am registered as self-employed.  The tax rules for overseas tax are that you pay the difference in the UK.  The difference between the UK and China Tax Rates that is.

 

E.g.

 

In the UK, the rate might be 20%, and here is 18%.  You pay the 2% difference in the UK.  Obviously, if you earn more than a certain amount, you have to pay more than just income tax.

10 years 21 weeks ago
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After an individual resides in China for five years, in the sixth year, if the individual resides in China for less than a year, the five year period is reset and the “90 (183) day rule” applies again. This means that you only need to pay tax on China-sourced income, and whether or not you need to pay tax on income paid by employers outside of China depends on whether you were in China for less than 183 days or more than 183 days. If you reside in China for one year during your sixth year, you will need to pay IIT on your salaries and wages derived both from China and outside of China, regardless of place of payment.

After an individual resides in China for five years, in the sixth year, if the individual resides in China for less than a year, the five year period is reset and the “90 (183) day rule” applies again. This means that you only need to pay tax on China-sourced income, and whether or not you need to pay tax on income paid by employers outside of China depends on whether you were in China for less than 183 days or more than 183 days. If you reside in China for one year during your sixth year, you will need to pay IIT on your salaries and wages derived both from China and outside of China, regardless of place of payment. - See more at: http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2013/01/14/china-expat-tax-filing-and... an individual resides in China for five years, in the sixth year, if the individual resides in China for less than a year, the five year period is reset and the “90 (183) day rule” applies again. This means that you only need to pay tax on China-sourced income, and whether or not you need to pay tax on income paid by employers outside of China depends on whether you were in China for less than 183 days or more than 183 days. If you reside in China for one year during your sixth year, you will need to pay IIT on your salaries and wages derived both from China and outside of China, regardless of place of payment. - See more at: http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2013/01/14/china-expat-tax-filing-and... an individual resides in China for five years, in the sixth year, if the individual resides in China for less than a year, the five year period is reset and the “90 (183) day rule” applies again. This means that you only need to pay tax on China-sourced income, and whether or not you need to pay tax on income paid by employers outside of China depends on whether you were in China for less than 183 days or more than 183 days. If you reside in China for one year during your sixth year, you will need to pay IIT on your salaries and wages derived both from China and outside of China, regardless of place of payment. - See more at: http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2013/01/14/china-expat-tax-filing-and...

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10 years 21 weeks ago
 
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5-Year Rule for China Foreign Teachers

Postby smjohnson5 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:54 pm

In 2013, I'll complete my fourth year teaching English in China.

I've heard that the maximum number of years that foreign teachers are allowed to work in China is five years. Then, they must leave for two years before they can return. Is this true? Is this regulation enforced? I can't find reliable information about it, so thanks in advance for any guidance.

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TopRe: 5-Year Rule for China Foreign Teachers

Postby Dr. Greg » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:47 pm

Technically speaking, there is in fact a 5-year rule on the books, i.e., a regulation that requires foreign teachers to leave China after five continuous years of employment.

We address this regulation, as well as the general role of law in China, in an article I strongly recommend that you take a careful look at: SAFEA, Foreign Teachers, and Chinese Boxes. Basically, all such rules in China are only irregularly enforced and when they are enforced, they are being used to give face to foreign employees who are otherwise no longer wanted, i.e., as a rationalization.

My advice is for you to speak directly and honestly with your current FAO or school owner (whichever applies). Simply say that you’ve heard about such a rule and you were wondering if it is in effect in your province or city. If the Chinese official replies that he or she has never heard of such a rule, then you shouldn’t worry about it.

The bottom-line is this: if your school officials have any guanxi (clout) at all with the local government and they want to retain you, then it truly doesn’t matter whether the rule is in effect or not. Conversely, if they don’t want to retain you, they may call into effect this or any other “rule” they can think of to justify the termination.

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http://middlekingdomlife.com/employment/5-year-rule-for-china-foreign-teachers-t490.html

ironman510:

Does a “5-year rule” exist? If you replace the word “rule” with “guideline” then, yes, it does exist in a purely advisory sense. Are there any particular provinces or municipalities that are uniformly adhering to it? The answer to that very specific question is a resounding no. It appears that even where that guideline has been adopted, there are far more many exceptions being made to it than there are specific enforcements of it. To understand the reason for this, one must first appreciate the fundamental purpose of the law in China.

10 years 21 weeks ago
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ironman510:

In regard to a 2-year, 3-year and/or 5-year rule (in addition to all other “rules” that are anecdotally reported on various Internet forums), the real question is not whether these regulations exist or not. The only truly salient issue or question is how they are going to be interpreted and enforced by various officials (assuming they do exist)—and the bottom line is, there really is no reliable way for any foreigner in China to know the answer to that question.

For one thing, the answer is never a definite one because it is typically treated and responded to on a case-by-case basis. In the West “a rule is a rule, is a rule.” In China “a rule is a rule, when it is in the best interest of social order and social development depending on____“ (the appropriate provincial or municipal leaders will fill in the blank).

10 years 21 weeks ago
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Shifu

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this is China: If they want you here: The Chinese will make sure you can stay.  I they don't want you here. Bye Bye.  Not even the Chinese know for sure. I am hoping I can get a D visa and work. after this year I will be able to work one more year according to this 5 year rule.   

ironman510:

For the D visa: you are referring to the 5 year marriage, must have a baby & house = D visa deal or the 5 year working as a senior manager with 200,000 RMB sitting in your account deal?

 

I've already been to the PSB and these are the only 2 five year D visa deals.

10 years 21 weeks ago
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Very simple, in that 12 months, get a M (business visa) and still stay in China do some business for a while ( even cooperation in a job, but under the business aspect) and after that change it in work visa again for another 5 years.  If you just NOW got the 5 years visa,  please do not think NOW what will be over 5 years here !!! China law visa is changed as often as you change your shoes here always ! Good luck !

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Shifu

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Fortunately, I came back September 2012 after a few months in Britain.  SO, I am good until Sept '17, if I want to be medically sectioned when I go home for good in 2017, if I last that long Wink

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's a joke, ftr.

Rin:

I thought it had to be a year out?

10 years 21 weeks ago
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Thank you all for your encouraging replies it has helped put my mind at rest and not to over think the situation too much.  To respond to some of the questions, yes I work in the teaching sector and have been employed by the same employer for the last few years. 

It could b possible be that the company I work for wouldn't want to keep me on after 5 years so this visa rule could give them a reason to let me go which would be fair enough because I have had a good yet challenging run for a first time traveler and am grateful for the opportunity.  Personally I would like to continue working for the same company and as some of you have mentioned I should talk with the Director of the company and explain how I feel and take it from there, I suppose I got stressed out because just when finally my life seemed to be gradually picking up the prospect of leaving and starting all over again is daunting.  Anyway thank you all and keep the posts coming, it's better to have insight on China's visa rules which chop and change at the drop of a hat.

ironman510:

What you're trying to say is that you found your life and security in the teaching sector of teaching. Good, you should hold on to it. I also found my life and security and future in China... Why give it up? Because most of these guys can't handle maturing in China. But you can and have... Good job man... I think your company will keep you I bet..

10 years 21 weeks ago
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CARLGODWIN1983:

Ironman,

 

Give it a rest, please.

 

With respect.  Not meaning to be rude, but just accept that people are different.  Glad you are getting along well here.

10 years 21 weeks ago
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ironman510:

@CARLGODWIN, Give yourself a rest, well I wasn't asking for your option, get of of China any time you want, let others express how happy we are to be here.. so up yours to your request..

 

10 years 21 weeks ago
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For Shenzhen Expert workers, my wife found out today that in the 33 of Shenzhen's booming city that the 5 year rule has never been used and is not  planned to be used. If you have a criminal record in China then you might be asked to leave..

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@ Ironman you definitely hit the nail on the head it terms of me finding security in China.  Before China I wasn't in a great place and my intentions about moving to China were initially to work for a year and perhaps return back home, as it gave me ample time to clear my head.  But life has a funny way of working out, I became very dedicated working for the company and it has taken years for it to show , I know some people may mock English teachers but I have met some amazing individuals who make great teachers, I am not saying I am one of them but I know that hard work and gratitude goes a long way.   Either way once I find out about my visa situation I will post it here and will continue to update any rule changes.

ironman510:

I feel you, I'm the same, and teaching is a real job and we are real teachers because we try to improve and actually try to teach.. This is the greatest job market in the world.. All I care about is being stable in life, i won't be too greedy.

10 years 21 weeks ago
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A:  "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "S
A: "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "Shenzhen agent can connect you with an employer, who's authorized to hire waigouren ... and can sponsor Z visa." It's not like every 10th person you meet in Shenzhen's hood can sponsor work visa ...  The only way to change from student to labourer visa is just a regular way by: 1. Finding an employer, who'll apply for an Invitation letter; 2. Exit China and apply for Z visa in your home country's Chinese embassy; 3. Enter China in 30-days after Z visa was stamped into your travelling instrument ...As I am aware, you won't be able to switch to Working permit by remaining in China....,so make ready for a return to your home .... -- icnif77