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Q: I'm puzzled. What's the diff btwn self-respect in the West and face in China?
Face and the loss of face is a sensitive issue in China. I don't think I need to define "losing face" from a Chinese perspective. It would take a book or two. But what about self-respect from a Western perspective? Are the two concepts related? Perhaps one and the same?
I'm Italian-American and I was raised with certain values, the most notable being self-respect.. You disrespect me, my family, my livelihood, my home, my closest friends, and I lose face. To regain my face (and self-respect), I have to respond. Sometimes it isn't pretty which is something I am not proud of. Most of the time, I suck it up and move on.
But how do the Chinese respond to loss of face?
Did you see the article about the tuhao parents who threw a tantrum in front of Peking U because their brats didn't get in? No self-respecting Westerner would act like that. Chinese expect to have face, even when they behave in antisocial ways (although the Japanese seem to have combined face with a code of behavior). Face is denying reality when reality is ugly, and blowing every trivial success out of proportion.
Respect is about behavior, it is earned. It is when people see trustworthiness, competence, loyalty, compassion, exc and acknowledge it. It is not when people maintain an illusion that flaws do not exist.
Petulant whining and vindictiveness. "Face" is arbitrary: you can "give" it, "buy" it, lose it, and even "loan" it, whereas respect is earned.
Did you see the article about the tuhao parents who threw a tantrum in front of Peking U because their brats didn't get in? No self-respecting Westerner would act like that. Chinese expect to have face, even when they behave in antisocial ways (although the Japanese seem to have combined face with a code of behavior). Face is denying reality when reality is ugly, and blowing every trivial success out of proportion.
Respect is about behavior, it is earned. It is when people see trustworthiness, competence, loyalty, compassion, exc and acknowledge it. It is not when people maintain an illusion that flaws do not exist.
This is a serious question???
"Respect" is given because of how a person behaves, as an outward expression of what they truly think and feel, in ways that merit trust and acceptance (and perhaps other qualities) by other people. It is to act in a way such that others would not look down upon me, or in any (realistic) way see anything negative about me. It is concerned with how people think.
"Face" is about appearing to be something, or being treated a certain way - in the way the face determines. Thus, people who are bad can be treated as though they were good. This runs directly opposite to 'respect' (self or otherwise). As Sino said - face can be bought, or traded, or lost. Certainly, respect can also be lost. And it is through bad behaviour that it is lost.
However, the biggest difference between 'face' and 'respect' is truth (which might be something you look at in yourself, if you feel you've really been 'disrespected' - is it really a 'respect' issue, or a 'face' issue. Are you being treated how you deserve, or only how you want to be treated?)
Face once used to equal respect... and for some it still does.
the western version of face would be dignity. it's less subject to the whims of the people around you, because they must also behave within certain standards of decency. if people go too far in denying you your dignity, they suffer harsh condemnation. no such limitations for face-loss situations.
I think others have summed it up pretty well.
I think of respect, both of others and by sefl, as being something earned or real or whatever you want to call it.
Face seems like a much more "cheap" concept. Face is saying that others need to act a certain way towards you regardless of your behavior and getting mad when they don't/
Respect is being treated well because people acknowledge you're a solid guy who works hard and is good to people. Self respect would be being that solid guy in the first place
Face is people thinking you're a piece of shit but feeling compelled to pretend you aren't publicly out of self interest.
It's not a west vs china thing either. Tons of petty jerks in the west too, but I think we're more aware of that being WRONG and not accepting of it as a fact of life.
I view self-respect as more of an internal idea between a person and himself. Face is an entirely external concept - how the world perceives you. A hermit living in a simple cabin could have self-respect if he is content with himself and at peace with his life choices. But he might not have face do due his rejection of societal norms and lack of material possessions.
Self-respect, by definition, is you respecting yourself.
"Face" is other people respecting you, which can be genuine or fake. When the respect is fake, i.e. use of flatteries, the "face giving" equivalent in western culture is ego massage (massage someone's ego, or massage each other's ego).
Neither "self-respect" nor "face" are unique to chinese. If you want to say they are unique, it would be more accurate to say they are unique to human beings.
Shining_brow:
I'm not sure your last comment is true....
The concept of the alpha-male comes from other animals.. would that not be similar to 'face'??
earthizen:
The alpha male/female (e.g. queen bee) for animals is directly related to physical survival of the pack, it is different from human beings' face/ego massage which is not directly linked to physical survival (you can't literally eat "face" or get an ego massage and physically survive). This is a finer point, and a good one too.
Self-respect is earned and something we keep for ourselves. We develop it for ourselves and nurture it ourselves. Thus the word "self" in self-respect. Face is seen as something given from others and is supported by others.
Face is about doing whatever and sticking with it no matter how wrong you are, despite logic and arguments.
Self-respect is the opposite.
