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Posts: 856

Shifu

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Q: Is it legal to do freelancing on the side if you have a Z visa?

So I've got a Z visa and am theoretically totally legal here. However, what happens when you decide to do a bit of freelance work on the side, work that's not related to the company who sponsored you? Would you get punished if caught?

10 years 32 weeks ago in  Visa & Legalities - China

 
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yes it is illegal, the reason for the law is face, if you die in a school you do not have a visa for that school or commit a crime, international agreements about your death, health, earthquake with you in building of a school you were not supposed to be, well all hell breaks lose because you made someone a lot of trouble.

if you piss off a parent at a school your not suppose to be at and the psp comes out the school loses its permit to hire foreigners and you just cost the owner a loss income or a huge bribe.

on the other hand, if you are a good teacher, careful who you work for, and dont piss anybody off, many people do this,

the biggest mistake is working for a direct competitor, 2 training schools will get you sent home quickly, they both think your stealing their customers to the other school.

if you have good relationships with your school and you work a different age group, your sponsor can actually give you permission to work at other places, i work part time at middle schools with permission as a way to recruit kids to the international program at the high school.

i have also worked at universities were the relationship to work at another university was set up by friends of different schools and a contract was written that one school paid the other school at a certain rate with permission from both parties.

in short , no competitors , tread lightly , do a good job , and dont piss anybody off.

in the old generation we said "dont burn any bridges that you dont have to"

you may have to take compensation less that ideal in short term for long term gain.

at least 8 schools i could call now and work for them, the problem is the full time pay sucks, but they do treat you fairly overall and part time is a better marginal utility for your time, now i have permission for side work with written agreements and life is pleasantly legal. but it was an arduous journey.
private lessons are another topic all together, but the more exposure and the less you stay home , the more privates you can get, now that im married, i could live off the privates and stay home but im not the homebody type
forgot another problem, in china "china looks out for china", if you have a problem and go the psp, dont expect if your right to get it resolved in your favor , a contract for employment is worthless in china, none of my contracts that say i have insurance has ever provided me proof that i do have insurance, if i try to open a bank account they ask for proof that im paying taxes and this has never been provided to me ever. the school usually says they will open a bank account for you and give you an atm card to activate.
these things may happen in tier one cities with more oversight but in many places this is a complete fairy tale, in short dont be naive..
 

derek:

One of the best "advice" posts I have ever read here. Nicely written.

10 years 32 weeks ago
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ironman510:

I never teach at other companies. I just go to my clients home and teach them there. I agree very good advice.

10 years 32 weeks ago
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10 years 32 weeks ago
 
Posts: 1838

Emperor

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No, it is not legal. Two issues come into play here. the first is the immigration laws. The WP/FEC used to obtain the RP is employer specific. It is tied to that organization and you are not legally entitled outside that specific scope. Secondly, if you freelance, you are technically operating an unregistered and illegal company. To operate as a legal self employed person within the PRC, you must register a company with the local government. Furthermore, the work permit must be attached to that business licence. There are further implications. As an illegal freelancer, you are not declaring income. that is obviously tax evasion and is a crime. No matter how small the additional earnings are, you are legally obliged to submit the information to the authorities.

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10 years 32 weeks ago
 
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You can only work for the employer who gets you the residency permit/z visa

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10 years 32 weeks ago
 
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Apparently freelance is allowed if your wife sponsored you a resident permit, but you are not allowed to work for a company.you need to go from house to house to house teaching kids at their home or teaching adults at their home. You will never get in trouble doing this.

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10 years 32 weeks ago
 
Posts: 1142

Shifu

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But remember laws in China are more like guidelines. After all ,they have freedom of speech here, remember.

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10 years 32 weeks ago
 
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OK, this is my pet peeve and I would like to outline the situation from an employers perspective. I would like to add a caveat here that I am not an English teacher but I am a self employed service provider. For me, the principle is the same. Others can see it from whatever perspective they so desire.

 

I came to China a number of years ago with a plan and a dream. I wanted to set up a business utilizing the skills that I possess and the education that I received. I have done that. It has taken a long time and significant investment. I have worked on one abiding principle. What I do in a foreign country shall be legal and follow the guidelines set.

 

I provide a service to overseas clients. I manage supply chains on my clients' behalf and make improvements where necessary. I do the work then provide an invoice. It is a simple business model. But the prices that I charge have to reflect the costs that I incur. I have invested in a business, I must by Chinese business law have a separate office facility to my residential address, I must by Chinese law employ native workers paying their national insurance costs, I have had to furnish the office, I have had to buy equipment for the office, I pay training costs for my employees, I pay both corporate and personal taxes of my own, I have to sponsor my own work visa & RP and, after all of those things are accounted for, I have to make enough to rent my own apartment and live.

 

Fine, they are normal business overheads that you could incur in any country. But they are significant costs and they have to be factored into the price of the service my company offers. Illegal freelancers are faced with none of these.

 

Over the past year, I have encountered a significant threat to my company. I have come across a couple of people with the same background and education as me working freelance in China on spousal visas. I have lost two key clients because the price they charge significantly undercuts what I can realistically charge. There have been several effects to this not the least being that I have had to lay off one very good Chinese employee because the client she serves and the account she manages has been taken away from me.

 

I spoke with the client concerned. He said the only factor in his decision to move to this "competitor" was cost. Cost that I just cannot match.

 

Last week, I sat with immigration officials of the PSB and a Chinese business lawyer with the purpose of getting to the bottom of what the law actually does say in terms of foreign nationals freelancing in China. The answer was emphatic and to the point. It cannot be done legally under any circumstances! My reply was simply to ask why the hell they don't go and do something about it.

 

As it stands, this situation has caused me substantial stress and frustration. I am now in a position where I daren't even spend more capital on the traveling expenses I would incur going out to find new clients. After all, why should I do this if the law will not protect me against those that can come and simply steal new clients from under my nose.

 

Rant over!

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10 years 32 weeks ago
 
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i salute your perseverance, but you should already know this would happen, if china steals from large corporations with government collaboration, a small business does not have a chance.

my wife's parents had a furniture business here for many years, every 3 months they had to change the entire inventory, 3 months is how long it took for everyone else in the area to copy and make the styles cheaper and cut the price.

 

i had an idea to make a calendar with roman calendar and lunar calendar combined, list all the holidays for the west with chinese translation and chinese holidays with english translations.

if i took the time and effort to make the calendar, someone would copy and steal it and sell it on taobao tomorrow and i would waste a lot of time designing and putting it together.

if i could find the calendar, i would buy one, but i definitely want be the one that makes it first.

good luck with your business, doing business with out the rule of law is like living in the wild west of the early 1800's.

Kaiwen:

The government have stolen nothing from me (although plenty of their policies have to be questioned). Those that have done the stealing are foreign nationals with illegal freelance operations.

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not exactly going to bust your chops, and not exactly going to watch my writing, grammar etc.  but isn't your status 'governor' ?  well, when i hear people talk about 'z visa' I begin to worry.. Z visa is nothing in itself. It just means that your Legal Employer is following the steps to have u work Legally in the PRC.  peeeeeple issued z visa get RP's.

 

i know that u know this.  u r probably doing the same thing that i do.. I just say Visa,, because friends, chat-mates don't know wtf an RP is. 

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General

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Laws change pretty quick n drastically here with no forewarning (unless you are in the know) and no bargaining if you are busted(unless you are seriously loaded)..If you are an expat and very new in China at that I would advice going through an agency or atleast a consulting firm and NOT a chinese run one, I cannot stress that enough especially for English teachers.
But overall a good agency would shoulder most of the falling rubble from such changes plus if your agent is connected then u will definitely get wind of any  law changes before they hit and because the agent is in the industry then they would know quick solutions to issues..they would also be go betweens between you and the school they connect you with coz I have had friends really screwed over by the schools they work for and friends who the school tried to screw them over but the agency representing them intervened..
That's just my 2 cents on this..

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10 years 32 weeks ago
 
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Governor

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It depends on the contract with the company or school that has sponsored you for your Z-visa.

 

Does your contract allow "non-company" or "non-school" work?  If it does, no problem.  If it does not, then you run the risk of breaking one of the conditions of your contract.

 

Are you an honourable person?

 

Just my 2 kuai's worth. Smile

 

P.

icnif77:

My Contract stipulates that: 'Party B agrees that during Contract period he/she will not accept employment at any other Schools, which will disrupt regular teaching work.'

 

Or, I can work part-time at other Schools under condition I am not late for the classes at RP sponsor.

10 years 32 weeks ago
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a little horror story for your amusement

 

this week a young western gentleman made the mistake of taking photos near the gate of an air force base, a closed one that only has a factory there now.

the gentlemen was arrested, national police came in and searched his apartment to see if he was a spy, he happened to live in an apartment owned by the police department, so his local relationship was quite good,

he left in the middle of the night to hong kong and want be back,

 

his problem was the training school had him working for them, provided by a national chain of training schools with an "f" visa, so even though local authorities gave it a wink and a nod, the national police were looking for anything to make his life miserable.

so the national training school has  a nail above the floor and somebody now has the hammer in their hand.

 

this will be very problematic for the national school for august, in august teachers who did not want to take a vacation, leave early and you need new visas for new victims (sorry, teachers) coming in, have to be processed at the psp with the national police looking over their shoulder, a lot of money will change hands for this indiscretion.

the school needs teachers in august and febuary to fill in gaps of coverage by teachers at other schools and sometimes foreign students if necessary to satisfy the parents that their little crumb cruncher has a foreign teacher in every class as promised so the renewal money train for another term keeps on rolling, maybe this is the reason most schools renew for the next term 5 to 6 weeks early with a slight discount and a cumbersome refund policy.

very clever. my apologies to all great fiction writers for making you look bad, im not creative and have no imagination, i just live in a reality that is perceived as a nightmare and I dont choose to ignore my habitat of humans like most of the people around me that are as happy as Snow White in a blissful ignorant sleep.

sam239:

Source?

10 years 32 weeks ago
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ambivalentmace:

this little story is to close to my little part of the world, have to look out for me and possible repercussions there from, cya

10 years 32 weeks ago
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10 years 32 weeks ago
 
Posts: 73

Governor

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Who cares if its legal or not, just do it!   Most people are not going to stay in China forever anyway.    Life is no fun if you take no risks!

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10 years 32 weeks ago
 
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i would prefer to spend my free time doing other things than working illegally (it's called living laugh)

ironman510:

As a father, I prefer providing a good future for my kids, that requires more work, I can always have fun, even after work, it's different when your a parent.

10 years 32 weeks ago
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sorrel:

different people have different priorities at different times :o)

10 years 32 weeks ago
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ironman510:

Thats why I said at this time in my life it's my priority. So my point is you don't have to insult others that work PT on the side by saying: " its called living", I own a house and car because of PT. Just like me a lot of people work Part Time to help family, build house, help sick family members. So my point to your smart ass mouth is: Working PT on the side of a Full-time job is for a reason, not because we're not trying to live. You really need a slap to wake up to reality, I haven't met one person that did PT jobs for fun or just to gain money, everyone I know does it for important reasons. So maybe we'll be living better then you in the future. I want you to know how old I am, I'm 33, home owner, stock investment and more, why, how, when, who? I'm American, because I started to save 7 years ago working PT on the side, China and Korea. You don't deserve a husband, that I can say. You have no idea how a man sacrifices to give a woman a good life so they can live a happy life. It's obvious, your single and stupid. Otherwise you would have never have add that last sucking comment at the end, the first part of your message was fine.

10 years 32 weeks ago
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sorrel:

hey - I didn't mean to be offensive. It is just that I have had so many people tell me during the last 2 years that I should work part-time. My reply was that I preferred to live and experience travel etc, my priorities being different from theirs. They would sneer at my choice. BTW, I have worked with people who DID work part time because they wanted to. everyone is different

10 years 32 weeks ago
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ironman510:

well it was offensive. Very offensive. Think before you say something that stupid.

10 years 32 weeks ago
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ironman510:

I don't know if you're a native speaker of English, but when you say "it's called living!" Thats away of telling someone that you're doing the correct thing in life and the rest of us that do the opposite or not the same thing as you are some how doing it wrong. All you had to say was: I don't have a need for PT job, I'm young and want to spend time trying new things. That's called being polite. Thats your free EF lesson tonight.

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Answer of the DayMORE >>
A:  "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "S
A: "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "Shenzhen agent can connect you with an employer, who's authorized to hire waigouren ... and can sponsor Z visa." It's not like every 10th person you meet in Shenzhen's hood can sponsor work visa ...  The only way to change from student to labourer visa is just a regular way by: 1. Finding an employer, who'll apply for an Invitation letter; 2. Exit China and apply for Z visa in your home country's Chinese embassy; 3. Enter China in 30-days after Z visa was stamped into your travelling instrument ...As I am aware, you won't be able to switch to Working permit by remaining in China....,so make ready for a return to your home .... -- icnif77