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Q: Lengthy phone conversations for basic questions?
I notice sometimes at work that for example if someone I have to talk to on the phone doesn't speak english well I'll make the bold move of asking someone sitting near me to help translate.
A lot of times the question will be important but very straightforward...a Q&A that should go:
Coworker "Hi, where have you included the information on _________"
Guy on phone: "________? That should be in Section 3: Implemtation Plan"
Coworker: "Expatlife26, can you find it in section 3?"
El26: "No I checked, it's not there"
Coworker: "Can you check again please"
Guy on Phone: "Sorry, you're right it's in appendix B"
Coworker: "Thanks. Appendix B"
EL26: "Appendix B!"
done...total time 3 minutes
But somehow in practice this will take literally 15-20 minutes. I just don't get it...what are they talking about? I mean honestly i'm not trying to be a smartass or anything. I've asked too and the answer is always because they're making sure they understand each other.
Is it really that tough to establish common ground on something over the phone? I mean i'm not dealing with a bunch of idiots here either these are smart people and I don't notice this in person. Is this a common phone issue when speaking chinese?
I know they're not just wasting time either. I just don't get it.
I have noticed noticed this alot. Sometimes ill ask my wife or someone to make an appointment for me and after a 10 minute call shes like " yup, 3pm"
No matter how many times i try to make it clear that it doesnt take 10 minutes to confirm someone will be there at 3, and youve nevet spoken to this person so chit chat is out of the question and i plainly heard you speak 50 different sentences, something must have been said....
But nope! Nothing else!
mike695ca:
Oh and ive heard the " making sure its clear" excuse too. I just finished making a rather large purchase and during the contract singing im like whata this charge?? My wife asked in one sentence and it took a 20 sentence 5 minute response to get " service fee". Just one example of many in a needlessly long signing.
Man , When I was in business some years ago, this was daily practice.
"Please call to the xx xupplier and tell him xxxxx. Okay. than you here 5 minutes conversation over something, which hardly takes 30 seconds for normal people. and on the end of call ... hmmm bye hmm hmm aa aa hmm bye aaa hmm aaa hmm ee hmm
I don't speak cantonese. This week when going through a contract with the company's lawyer and my wife, I ask: if xyz occurs, how much will it cost?
I shit you not, 45 minutes later, I'm becoming bored as the conversation continues and blurt out "cut the crap, you went to university so you know some english. How much will it cost if xyz occurs" He gets his calculator out. 10 seconds later he shows me a number. I say ok, that's what i wanted to know, please go on.
I later asked the missus what they were discussing....your question, stupid. And you were rude to him!
expatlife26:
haha yeah that's totally it.
Is it some kind of politeness thing? like if you don't engage with someone for a while it's considered rude?
Cause my instinct is 100% the opposite...be polite by showing respect for the other persons time. I'm not so vain to think anybody really is that thrilled to make smalltalk with me you?
I just don't want people to see my number calling and think "oh god this asshole is gonna talk my ear off"
iWolf:
Mr expatlife26, if you and I go to dinner, we can order in one or two minutes. Take your chinese partner and it will take 10-15 minutes. I have been in China for several years and can mostly let this slide but I don't understand cantonese well for anything other than simple things. Most waitresses are cantonese here in GD of course and so is my wife so it does make sense that they will use their most comfortable form of communication....but what do they discuss? Whether the chef has a cat and what colour it is and its favourite fluffy toy??? I have no idea but apparently, I am a rude asshole in these situations.
I can speak Chinese and do this for a living, and this happens to me all the time. Guilty as charged here.
In a casual interpreting situation, I often find myself doing much more talking than the actual content I'm supposed to transmit. For a reason or another, I often feel the need to add-in some contextual/cultural explanations. Stupid example:
"Hey, does he like that strange food?
- Hey, do you like that?
- Kind of, it tastes like that other food but with a twist and blablabla...
- Oh yeah I know, that's because they add some this and that into it, and blablabla"
[...]
"- Err... Yeah he likes it". I just don't feel like doing it all over again. Also out of respect for the interlocutor, who might not be too interested in knowing all about tastes and foods that rings zero bells. You know, even in a relaxed environment (actually, especially in a relaxed environment, during formal meetings I'd just be here to be the Google bot and it makes things just so much easier), it takes a lot of energy and mind coordination to be the middle man and make the two ends meet.
When about signing contracts or more business-like occasions, honestly you do need to put a lot of "what if this what if that how do you do this that" crap that's not really useful to the actual point, but more about establishing an understanding that Party A knows its shit (even when they don't) and Party B should act accordingly. You know they'll only do as little as can do and get away with as much as can don't do.
So, yes, that's the "making it clear" excuse and it's not an option. When I need to meet someone at 3pm, I'll usually add that "at 3.01 it's a no show and I'm gone, my time is precious to me and not yours to waste, lack of coordination on your part will not constitute emergency and flexibility on my part, please acknowledge". Because otherwise there's a good 50% chance I'm still there at 4. Same goes for restaurant "Okay, this looks tasty but is it the real deal or is it a BS picture. My friends are allergic to [Item 1] and they might die instantly if it's not the real deal. Be honest now so we avoid a scandal later, thank you." Trust me, most of the time your workmates/friends/wives are doing you a favor.
About simple questions that take forever, yeah, well most employee everywhere just feel a straightforward answer might hurt their business. To take mike's example:
"What is this fee?"
Chinese employee: reciting its by heart lines. It-s-for-our-administrative-costs-and-maintenance-of-our-facilities-but-don't-worry-you-only-have-to... (go on)
"So it's a service fee?"
Chinese employee: thinking hard whether a straightforward answer might be a wrong answer. What does mike want? What would make mike happy? Does mike have a holy aversion for service fees? What does my boss would want me to say? What's happening? What is the purpose of life? Keep talking keep talking!
Now depends if the people you're with are patient enough or will interrupt at some point.
expatlife26:
I guess my hunch is just that in general the chinese language requires a lot of overhead because it's just so vague and there aren't enough words to be specific.
A friend in IT was explaining to me how computer terms in Chinese just don't make any sense at all. Like RAM for example translates to characters meaning "Things you keep around the house", like knick-knacks I guess in english, and cache is "Fast things you keep around the house" So then the metaphor of out of memory doesn't work either and they have to have this whole other way of explaining it.
So like if language is the operating system of the brain...Chinese is like crappy pre-XP windows. Ties up a lot of resources.
RiriRiri:
Not exactly.
The language itself as as much potential as any other language. But modern PRC being what it is, you'll just need to dumb everything down for most people to follow you, is all. When you meet interesting people, language doesn't get in the way for transmitting ideas, sarcasms, etc.
So in a way you're right, but the reason is not the language, just the average education level.
Mandarin has more than enough words for everything, they just wasted many of their characters (the equivalent of semantic elements) them into having 20 iterations of "splendid" and "glorious" instead of deeper concepts. That's intimately tied to the culture of licking asses, obviously. But it can change, they could be recycled should people want it. Like 艹, the key for grass, nowadays means fuck to avoid censorship.
Every language evolves within the constraints of what the people who speak it aspire to. Like, they have a word that's called 素质, that's supposed to describe a person's inner qualities, like trustworthiness, honesty, respect of others. Western languages don't have a word for all of this together.
expatlife26:
i know japanese has something like an auxilliary alphabet they use to fill in the gaps.
like if you look at a japanese sentence...half the letters look very very similar to chinese, to the point that I really can't tell the difference at all, but then the other half are something completely different looking.
China should do something like that if they dont' want to make new words.
I get impatient with such crap, and (hopefully) make it fairly obvious by saying things like "yes, I got you the first 3 times you said it - that's why I replied by repeating it to you to for confirmation... 3 times! Now, stop treating me like an idiot". I don't often get people doing that to me more than about 3 times.....
