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Q: What is an English teacher's place in the system?
Some teachers (like Traveler) have gripes about unqualified foreigner teachers. Some have gripes about unqualified Chinese English teachers. Do you think these complaints are justified? What is your place in the system?
11 years 3 days ago in Business & Jobs - China
I asked this question because I had similar observations when I first arrived in China. But that was before I understood Chinese thinking.
Why are teachers invited to China? To regulate and restructure the Chinese English education system or teach students according to their own(Chinese) expectations? Were you hired as a consultant or as a worker?
This question is at the crux of the problem. If you come to China expecting to change their way of learning English, you will have many disappointments and frustrations. If you come to China as an employee to work within their guidelines, you can adjust your thinking to better integrate with their expectations.
I turned this observation into an opportunity. Many Chinese know the system is broken. I helped open a school that teaches English according to my standards. Parents can see the difference like night and day.
crimochina:
schools want foreign english teachers to teacher the way chinese want foreign english teachers to teach. i came here to teach english. but the schools and the culture interfere greatly in that. i'll give you an example, cheating . my class is design to improve my students english by having them do practical real world like assignments. if they cheat or try to "fake it" they fail, because you did not do anything to improve your english. but this puts me at odds with the school. i try to teach students how to actually use english but that rubs agsainst them teaching students to "act" like they know english.
xinyuren:
You're right, that is the reality of the situation. The sooner a teacher understands this, the better off they will be. When you sign on as a teacher, you will be be a tool of the system. To deny this fact is to stab yourself with a thousand knives.
crimochina:
but i believe i can still teach english within the confines of the system. it's all about balance.
sadly everything in china is just for show. foreign english teachers are part of the show. chinese students are supposed to go to their classes and play games or activities because foreigners are inferior, open and only know pronunciation. chinese english english teachers teach the most important aspects of english because chinese people are so superior they have a better command of english. i once worked for a big english training school in beijing (part time) most of the full time foreign english teachers dressed like starving artists some even dressed hip hop artists (baggy pants sagging) I had to kick myself because i realized sth i disagreed with kchur about turned out to be true.
An English teacher, a foreigner is most often seen as an entertainer for the kids and also somewhat as a teacher. My first school was a private school and my student's English knowledge was very low. I was told that they all were very good and the previous [foreigner] teacher had given the entire class high marks. I decided to give my own test and most of them failed. So, we went through the school year and just before the end I was called into the 'director's office and was asked how my students were doing. I gave him my honest assessment and was told this: 'You are the teacher and it is up to you to make necessary adjustments so all students will have a good grade.'
That about summed it up how we English teachers fit into the system.
xinyuren:
agreed. So the value system is different. Incidently, I don't think there is a right or wrong here. They want something. They want you (a foreigner) to give it to them and when a foreigner accepts a position, that is their job. Teaching proper English may or may not be an entirely separate issue.
What is your employer's (Chinese) point of view? What do they value? Do you really know? Do not confuse your point of view about proper teaching with theirs. Remember, you were hired to satisfy their expectations not the other way around! If you aren't prepared to learn and meet their needs (no matter how backwards they may seem), you won't be happy.
crimochina:
they want high scores and happy students. which is why i prefer uni students. most will understand that i am doing my best to prepare them for the next step. so they understand that i am going to push them hard.
each time i'm told that i'm a "responsible teacher" by my student it gives me fuel to continue on through the bs.
i've worked at a top school in a province and the worse school in a province. it seems the situation at the top schools is worse. and beween my atudents and this answer board i've figured out why.
it boils down to international partnerships. there is a lot of money to be loss in students scores.
wealthy families use their money and influence help their children cheat on the entrance exams. this gets them into the top universities . these are the students who are extremely dumb and lazy . their goals typically are to go to school abroad, but they are unwilling to work for it. the students all know this. with their chinese teachers they can get high scores by doing nothing because of guanxi, the teachers want to get closer to their wealthy family. but the school has to pressure the foreign english teachers into giving these lazy incompetent students high scores.
this board supplied the other half of the mystery (pogger sorry hulk and traveler) how are these students passing the toefl/ ielts and not all geting thrown out of the foreign schools. there are ways to cheat the ielts/ toefl and many of these intl partnership schools are crooked. wealthy families use the chinese schools' international partnerships to get their student enrolled abroad. the intl partnership schools makes out by collecting the 2 or 4 year tuition upfront. but in order for this to work you must force the foreign english teachers on board to play their role. it is all a show
xinyuren:
You hit almost every talking point on this topic squarely on the nose. I'm sure this result was not the original intent of the government, but like most things in China, they have been manipulated by those who have money to serve another purpose.
sorrel:
well put. but once the students arrive in the foreign universities it is a different story. Guanxi gets a student so far, but there are students who try to bribe and threaten their way to exam success - resulting in at least one arrest: "This is how business is done in China" on the other hand, one European university was almost closed because a suspicious number of Chinese students were getting their degrees. It was a government university and after an investigation, the number of successful Chinese graduates dropped back to a level that reflected their effort. the solution for those in China as teachers? You will always come across students who want to learn and those who don't. Each person has to find their own answer to the students they are faced with.
To be honest, sometimes I feel like a cheater and a swindler. Might as well call me Hulk Swindlegrin. What exactly am I providing my students? I can try my hardest to correct their pronunciation (and they've actually improved quite a lot), but it seems like an uphill battle sometimes.
I get that I'm a white monkey, and I'm okay with that. I love making the kids laugh and happy, but I also want to teach them proper English. However, I really wish there were no Chinese English speakers (unless they were born in America) on these DVDs. The kids are learning a lot from their Chinese English speakers (the alphabet for one), and I'm just filling in the gaps.
Now, I'm not a career English teacher, but there's no way in hell that I'm "unqualified" to teach English according to the current system here. Any monkey could do it, as long as they can speak clearly. I have a lot of respect for people who actually take their job seriously, and do their best to help their students (as I do). I dislike when people cheat.
However, my school is not cheating the students, at least not on purpose. My boss is a millionaire (USD) who treats all of his employees with respect, and even sends his grandson to study at his school. He dresses like he has no money, though, lol. Sorry for the tangent...
Anyway, 90% of the English is being taught by the Chinese English teachers. I do not have a problem with this as they've actually done a really good job since they have their ABC's down (most of them, anyway). What I have a problem with is when they refuse to correct mistakes, or don't want any pronunciation help.
I have a problem with being expected to teach by the book without exceptions. When the book asks me to speak Chinglish, I automatically correct it unconsciously while speaking it. They don't like that.
Yeah, I get it. I'm a paid entertainer, and I don't mind. But the parents are paying for more than that. How can I do much in only 20-30 minutes?
xinyuren:
ah. Now we are in agreement. This is precisely why I refuse to work as a teacher in China and I set up the said English school. You can imagine my glee when I qualify my customers before I allow them to pay money for their children to attend:
"Why do you want to your child to attend this school? If your only reason is to pass the CET test, this school isn't for you. If you aren't prepared to support your child's learning at home, this school isn't for you. If you don't want your child to learn to think independently, this school isn't for you..."
Most schools cater to what the parents want in order to maximize profits. My customers are shocked when they realize they will have to meet my requirements before we accept them. The only way to ensure correct English is taught is to create your own system.
crimochina:
that's another part of the scam/ show , the textbooks. the textbooks/materials are not choosen based on what is good but through back door deals.
I have posted this link before, and quite a few people read it. It was written by a Chinese academic at Nanyang University in Singapore, and sets out very clearly the Chinese governments expectations of foreign teachers teaching methods, and also the rationale behind those expectations.
chinadailymail.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/guangwei-reading-language-education-in-china.pdf
Read from "Learning Materials" (p.13) onwards. If you can understand most of the text, you are probably OK as a teacher. If you can't understand it, you probably aren't OK as a teacher. If you can follow their requirements, you will probably have less trouble. I know from experience.
Chinese English teachers know grammar better than even most native speakers, so don't pretend you know more than them. There are over 2,000 grammar rules in English. The Chinese are taught these rules from primary school, we generally aren't.
Chinglish occurs where the Chinese and non-native speakers substitute their own native language grammar rules in place of English grammar rules (esp. syntax). When different nationalities impose many brand new sets of rules, it is understandable that the students get extremely confused.
Non-native speakers, such as Elena and Silva, seem to have a good command of grammar rules, so would be suitable at lower levels of teaching (if qualified). Lower level speakers like Jean have no business in a classroom. Native-speakers such as Sulk, who are partially qualified and have tertiary education, are also probably OK at lower levels. Others like Epic-urine and The Shining show by their confused ideas that they have no business in a classroom.
On the question of legality, I checked with a distant associate at the Chinese Consulate in Australia about the legal requirements, and basically got the answer "who knows?" The official guidelines are pretty much as Hugh stated in another thread, but apparently all Chinese laws can be adapted at any government level to suit the local requirements (like the green one said). However, they can reverse that adaptation at any time, so one could find oneself illegal without notice.
Quite frankly, I don't care if anybody works illegally any more. Good luck with the PSB when you get caught. I only responded because my name was mentioned in the question yet again.
Hulk:
bill, blogspot and wordpress are banned in China, I think. I could be wrong.
While, yes, they can reverse that decision, it's important to get it in writing to avoid such things. You can contest it if that happens. However, keep in mind that even if you're here legally, you can definitely become illegal if they decide to kick you out for any reason. This is China.
I recommend a Z visa to avoid such trouble.
Traveler:
It's on WordPress, not Blogspot/Blogger. I just tested it in five provinces of China, and it's not blocked, but that can vary depending on the server you work through, or even individual companies/schools.
Best to use a VPN. As a last resort, I can email it if you PM me. Not sure if I can send it through PM, though, but can send it through normal email if you PM.
A Z visa certainly helps, but if it is for another company, or various other reasons, it is not a complete safeguard. I have even seen instances where a school will later claim legitimate qualifications are fake, and employ another teacher for less money.
MissA:
Wordpress certainly used to be blocked at least - any attempt to open wordpress without my VPN used to crash the internet in an epic manner; even more so than FB.
Traveler:
Just use a VPN, or send me a PM, and it doesn't matter if the link is blocked. Best not to get off topic on irrelevant things.
bill8899:
You're right of course. There's nothing wrong with the link. My internet assistant helped my view the dissertation. Interesting and informative, I must say. I still prefer debates and "thought problems" but I'm an experienced amateur.
What my place? Hell if I know. Sometimes I get paid to be white. (You know I'm not joking.) Sometimes I do stuff. I just try to do my job on easy days as well as hard days.
I am not an English teacher but I guess in the broader interpretation of the word "teacher", I am. My role is actually a food safety consultant.
I was recently hired by a European retailer to visit a supplier and write a report about my findings. I walked into a food production area which was in polite terms, not as what I would expect at such a company. I stood and watched a group of food production staff carrying out a task. They said to me "Can you sing us an English song?".
The management that were there had zero concern for the hygiene standards nor that it was jeopardizing their relationship with a key customer. Instead, they just reiterated that I should sing a song to the workers.
That story is an aside from the general theme of this thread but is an adequate reflection of attitudes that exist towards foreigners in general. That is to say, it is not just you English teachers that are taken for performing clowns.
bill8899:
The sad thing is, I'm not the least bit surprised that they asked you to sing an English song.
I think the first thing to realise as a teacher of English in China is that the Chinese system is such that they don't want teachers, just native level speakers of English. After all if they truly wanted teachers they'd insist that we all held teaching qualifications.
I studied both English and Teaching in the UK, where the absolute essence of English teaching is INTEGRATION, moving the students up Bloom's taxonomy from mere reciting of fact to the pinnacle (of Bloom's) of creating things using the language they've acquired. To do this we need to teach ALL facets of English not just speaking. However, Chinese employment law is set up so that you can only legally employ a foreigner if it is for:
"...a post that cannot be filled by any domestic candidates for the time being but violates no government regulations..."
In effect this means that we can only teach speaking and or pronunciation which in many ways prevents us from teaching English as modern educational psychologists widely agree is the most effective way.
As I quoted in my other piece:
"Strictly speaking, any employer that hired a certified Western English teacher to teach English in an integrated manner across all four skill sets would be in violation of Chinese law."
This is, in my opinion a fundamental reason why on average Chinese speakers of English are pretty poor and their average IELTS score has hovered around 5.5 for many years. Once we know this we accept it or move on. I've accepted it grudgingly, I would love to be a 'proper' English teacher but my domestic situation means I REALLY want to stay in China for a few years yet.
xinyuren:
Well put. This is also my evaluation of the situation. I'm not a teacher nor to I desire to become one, but it I can see (and relate with) this particular problem from both sides of the equation. Any teacher wanting to come to China should address this fact so as not to be pushing unnecessarily against the grain.
MissA:
+ 1. Saved me the bother of answering. Surely this is the answer of the day, cat?
Hulk:
Couldn't agree more. This is really well written, and I've also accepted it grudgingly. I need to stay here for a few more months maximum (i hope) until I can take my wife home. I basically just do as I'm told.
An english teachers place is to be an educat0r. It seems like Traveler as you would like to call him also Mr. Craig if you want to get personal about it likes to teach people and I can see that in his answers. But in general an English teachers place is to teach someone and that's about it.
A friend said "they pretend to pay me and I pretend to teach"
In general I find Chinese teachers look down on native English speakers unless they have higher education like a Masters or PH D.
As a business teacher I got respect,as an English teacher I didn't.
Part of that is the poor behaviour and teaching of many native speakers (drinking, preying on female students, drug-taking and clueless teaching because they aren't teachers)
We are primarily here to teach oral English, they think they can do the rest better than us
Btw the whole system is broken and the Chinese teachers know it. If you really want to learn English you go to a private school like New Oriental, Web or Dynamic
