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Q: What is political correctness ?

Just interested in what you personally view as a definition?
I liked the following
Washington, D C
2120-September 1, 1945
To: D A MacArthur/C H Nimitz
From: H S Truman
Political Correctness is a doctrine, recently fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority and promoted by a sick mainstream media, which holds forth the
proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end!

7 years 38 weeks ago in  Arts & Entertainment - China

 
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This is an increasingly selfish world. China may be near the bottom, but the West is clearly catching up. Some people, including some in this forum, think they have the right to marginalize, insult, and otherwise behave pretty crappy to others. If PC has a negative conatation, its because it has been abused to the extent that it now undermines the principle it was supposed to represent. At the root of the problem is the word "correct". These days, there is no consensus on "correctness". People raised on foul language and poor manners have completely different ideas about what is correct than what has been classically considered to be "correct". Sometimes, I feel the uncouth have taken the majority position in this world. It is no wonder to me that they look down on "PC". To be "PC" is to be unselfish and empathetic: two rare qualities these days. Qualities that cant be enforced with laws.

Shining_brow:

I'm not so sure about your last statement... (but we've had this type of argument before).

 

France has the 'Good Samaritan" laws (I'm sure you're happy they use a Biblical reference there!... even though the concept was around long before the Bible was written... IIRC, Hammurabi's Code actually had a similar law). If you're at an accident, and you capable of helping - you must! China has introduced it after the FeiFei incident a couple of years ago.

 

I think enforcing it does bring about a change in attitude and consciousness. It doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen!

 

it's a way of the society to tell people (and especially kids) "This type of behaviour is NOT acceptable in a civilised society".

 

i would suggest that there is a correlation between laws and people's personal attitudes. In Aus, we started recycling in the homes a few decades ago. Obviously there was some dissent (extra costs, extra effort, etc). However, now it's become a mainstream idea and ideology... it's natural to put your recyclables into a recycling bin.

 

Not smoking in public indoor areas... came into effect a few decades ago. Now, such is so natural, that even here where people do it all the time, smokers tend not to do so, and will go outside (or, at the very least, ask first!)

 

We can argue whether that's true 'empathy' or just trained behaviour....

7 years 38 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Yet, in spite of these laws on the books, the world continues its decline into decadence. Why? Because laws can't change people's hearts and thoughts. You can teach people what you think is acceptable behaviour, but you cant control how they think. The nurturing of the heart is a personal decision and more people each day are choosing a form of morality (correctness) that is self-serving. A person who follows a set of codes just because they are enforced will seek every opportunity to find the loopholes when it benefits them. In essence, they are no better than outlaws. This is the current stigma attached to the term "PC".

7 years 38 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

I should have emphasised the role of kids, and how laws & behaviour affect kids and their internal beliefs...

 

But - it begs the question - can empathy and compassion be taught?

7 years 38 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Can we be taught to be unselfish and show empathy? Of course! But that isn't what's at issue here. There is a great gulf between knowing and doing and some people just don't give a damn.

7 years 38 weeks ago
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7 years 38 weeks ago
 
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To my understanding, Political Correctness is going out of ones way to ensure that no one gets offended. 

So...  Being more inclusive, more culturally aware, and not using words/terminology that have been deemed inappropriate or offensive. 

ambivalentmace:

in other words kissing everybody's ass, tossing their salad, and living in a bubble at the same time, i did not know anyone could be that flexible and limber. that's why everybody is unhappy, all the food taste like S**t.

7 years 38 weeks ago
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Spiderboenz:

I guess that's one way to look at it. 

The way I see it is making an effort to not be an offensive @$$hole. 

7 years 38 weeks ago
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Stiggs:

I think it started out the way you describe it Spider, and is based on good intentions. Problem is it is often taken to stupid extremes now.

7 years 38 weeks ago
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BHGAL:

never say what you think.

7 years 38 weeks ago
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7 years 38 weeks ago
 
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Argh, there be powdee haired prizzies lookin' fer a course to be offended. Stick yer pc in yer hornpipe 'n blow it off ye aft gunwhale.

nzteacher80:

Nautical but nice.

7 years 38 weeks ago
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7 years 38 weeks ago
 
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its thought control and speech control all rolled into one. In a way its a form of terrorism or bullying. orwells book 1984 is a good example

nzteacher80:

LMAO @ a form of terrorism. You are very confused. Terrorism is killing people in order to provoke fear and terror in a group of people to further your own political purpose. Political correctness is exactly not that.

7 years 38 weeks ago
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cub:

nzteached. since people are'' afraid'' and ''scared'' and ''frighned'' to say something that might'' offend'' someone and wont ''speak out'' because they might get ''punished'' either physically monatarialy or legally i would say that this is ''mental terrorism'' some even go as far in being PC to prosecute companies or whistleblowers for speaking out. And not just bombs explosions are a form of terrorism either. Terrorism is a fear to be afraid to be 'scared' ''anxious'' about something. real or imagined Again real orwells 1984 book PC abuse has almost become a cult its used as a weapon its either thought control to be punished if u dont say think or do as others and right or wrong good or bad dont exist Being a individual thinking on your own for yourself without big brother is discouraged. So terrorism comes in many different forms

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nzteacher80:

I doubt you have read the book.

7 years 38 weeks ago
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cub:

assumptions can be tricky nzteacher80 i read the book back in 1982 so have u read it?

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7 years 38 weeks ago
 
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It's a way to force people to do what should come automatically - show basic levels of respect to other people (until such time as that person has shown they don't deserve that respect).

 

It's also a way to stop ignorant self-centred arseholes from expressing their ignorance and arseholery.

 

It (hopefully) stops the ignorant aresholes from from being negatively affecting people with their ignorance. Eg - I think most on here think that being gay is ok (ie, not something to attack someone for). So, removing the negative connotations we probably used as kids (ie, "That's gay" equalling "that sucks") is a good version of PC. Because, if we continually associate the word 'gay' with things that are bad, offensive, or unwanted, those people who actually are gay are going to feel... bad, offensive to other people, and unwanted. And that sucks as a way for society to be! (gay suicide rates, anyone??)

 

As Stiggs said above, its intentions are good - but some (arseholes) take it to an extreme!

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7 years 38 weeks ago
 
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When I was very young I was taught to treat other people as I wanted to be treated. I was told not to call people nasty names and not to stare at people who were different. Some people missed out on this lesson in civility. Donald Trump is a prime example. He said that all Mexicans are rapists. I know this to be untrue as I've met many Mexicans and none of them raped me. If I were to criticise Trump in a politically correct way I'd say that his policies and viewpoints are racist, ill-founded and archaic. If I were to criticise him in a way that was not politically correct I'd say that he was a tiny fingered, cheeto-faced, ferret wearing, shit gibbon. So if you meet a black person and greet them with a cheerful "Howdy Nigger!" then you are not politically correct. As with all things it can be taken too far, as mentioned above.

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Is it 'PC" to not randomly throw out racist, xenophobic, homophobic slurs? Is it 'PC' to not make offensive derogatory remarks to a large group of people?

 

Is it 'PC' to not call people 'niggers', or 'chinks', or 'wops', or 'towel-heads', or 'faggot'... because it's just become a part of your language.

 

Is it 'PC' to actually be expected to be accurate in what one says or writes? Or is it better to just make generalisations that slander entire groups based on the actions of a few (and, quite possibly, not even members of that group)?

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It's funny how the only people who rail against PC are privileged white males.

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Its funny how the one's who push for pc are the minority that scream like stuck pigs when the majority don't agree with them

cub:

up vote for u phill

7 years 38 weeks ago
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nzteacher80:

I'm a privileged white male. I stand to gain the most and lose the least from the world being politically incorrect.

7 years 38 weeks ago
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nzteacher80:

I'll have a try at being politically incorrect... Phil you are the typical four X swilling, hickoid, drongo, redneck Ozzie c**t. I bet you have thin ankles as an evolutionary trait from all your ancestors wearing chains as you're  descended from a long line of degenerate criminals like all Australians are. How did I do?

7 years 38 weeks ago
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philbravery:

why you say baaahhh things ?

7 years 38 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Wow! How shocking that those who are the targets for the slurs and abuse are the ones who complain most about it... whodathunk it???

 

I'm a white, middle class male and my primary school was almost entirely white and middle class.

 

In my high school, my best mate called himself a 'wog' and loathed his Italian background. We had Italian as the mandatory 2nd language. for a year. So, combining those two elements was a big negative on him.

 

The thing is... he shouldn't have to feel bad about his background because of racist ignorant fucks who think it's ok to abuse someone merely based on where they come from.

 

So what if people are gay? What's it really matter? Why does what someone does with their own lives become cause for derision? And thus, by extension, why should the word 'gay' be an insult???

 

I learned at a very early age the utter stupidity of the non-PC crowd - and I learned it from the stupidity of my own family! My grandmother was racist - especially against the 'abos' and 'japs'.. My sister would say stupid things like "don't be such a girl" as an insult... WTF? Logic is never strong with the non-PC crowd!

7 years 38 weeks ago
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philbravery:

hahahahahahHahaha white middle class ..hahahahahahHahaha ohh if people only new the half of it hahahahahahHahaha ohh please stop your killing me hahahahahahHahaha

7 years 38 weeks ago
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PC, like many things, is something that comes as a way of addressing a real problem but can be taken past the point of rationality.

 

Look at the word itself "politically correct", that term in itself implies disingenuousness. That phrase implies it is basically a speech code that must be adhered to out of necessity and cynical pandering rather than genuine concern.

 

It is always a negative term...nobody sane describes themself as PC. To me I'm not being PC, i'm being polite...but someone can look at me and say i'm just not calling people "faggots" or "chinks" because of PC culture. I.e., undermine everything I say by implying I don't have the guts to speak the "real truth". That's the donald trump methodology...I'll fearlessly say outrageous things therefore I must be an honest person

 

But of course the reverse happens too. There ARE problems with intelligent, decent people having to watch what they say so opportunistic hypocrites can't use an alleged speech code violation to take them down and assign evil motives unsupported by the facts. For example an official with zero track record of bigotry in thought or deed brings up a real concern about for example mitigating or addressing concerns over crime committed by new migrants and is cynically branded a bigot opportunistically by a political opponent who could care less about anything but their own career. Because a person said something which isn't explicitly inclusive and progressive they are now morally equivalent to a nazi or KKK member and all prior behavior was just covering up their true racist self.

 

So basically it's a toxic trap used by opportunists on both sides to push their own agendas at the expense of the people and of rational discussion in general.

expatlife26:

Ok heres a good topical example of the toxic environment it creates and how both sides use it for their own BS...the new ghostbuster movie

 

You DO have a group of hardcore misogynst dipshits who blindly trash it because it stars women and believe that the existence of this movie undermines men somehow.

 

You DO have a group of hardcore PC adherents who will label one who says it doesn't look funny as being a woman-hating angry basement-dwelling fedora-wearing neckbeard virgins. And in some cases actually attempt to destroy someone's career.

 

And both these extreme groups are right that the other side are a bunch of dickheads, it's just that they have more in common with each other than they'd like to admit. Both of them seem to be digging in ideologically and pointing the finger at the other side for being so awful that they have no other choice. A hardcore moralistic PC type has WAY more in common with a hardcore misogynist in the actions they deem acceptable than they do with a moderately progressive rational person or a moderately conservative rational person.

 

And in between of course you have reasonable people on both sides of the spectrum who evaluate it like they would any other movie...my opinion being that despite a good cast there was nothing in the trailer that made it look like anything more than a nostalgia cash-in with the gimmick of flipping the genders. But hey I hope i'm wrong cause I LOVED ghostbusters as a kid so I have everything to gain from the release of a great entry in that franchise.

 

 

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It's important to distinguish between political correctness and politeness. Politeness is the cultural value that brought forth PC. The principle is sound, but taken too far it becomes detrimental. Not cutting off thieves' hands is proper moderation. Not punishing them is counterproductive. PC behaviour can be dictated too far, to the point that it is an exploitable loophole.

If PC makes it impossible to distinguish a certain behaviour/phenomenon because it is loosely tied to a population group (and subsequently branded discrimination), then problems are amplified not solved.

Talking about problems is the key to solving them. Stifling discussion is even worse than irrational arguments. Unfortunately, in a diverse population, there's always a group who is offended by any discussion.

How would you feel about an openly muslim political party? Consensual gay sex involving an under-16yo? 9 months paid pregnancy leave? Mandatory voter training courses? Environmental tax? Queue priority for elderly enforced by law? Obesity symptoms branded as fully subsidised disability? Non-native language schools? Open border job market? Abolishing public transport?

You name it; one person's need is another's problem.

expatlife26:

Well said. All of these things are real issues but extremists on both sides just polarize the hell out of everything.

 

Right wing dickhead: "that woman chose to get pregnant she shouldn't get any handouts or time off on MY dime!"

 

Left wing dickhead: "It's pure misogyny that women don't get a full 18 months paid time off, fight the patriarchy!"

 

Somewhere in the middle there is totally a reasonable compromise but when you feel like the other side is a bunch of extremists you don't want to give any ground for fear that they'll just keep pushing for more. Their extremism and misrepresentation justifies your own extremism and misrepresentation.

 

Thats the problem with ideologues...they have so much more in common with their enemies than they do with anybody a normal person would want to spend time with.

7 years 38 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

While it may be important to differentiate the two, to the dickheads out there who don't want to be polite, I think it's an important weapon that needs to be smacked down on them. Ie, saying "you shouldn't say that, it's impolite" isn't going to do much.. they'll keep ranting.

 

So, there seems to be a need to introduce laws that enforce PCness (politeness). In Australia (and other countries) we already have this - anti-hate speech is illegal. It came about because of 'Poltical Correctness" - but as said, it's basically a form of enforced politeness. I have no problems with it. I know others (and no doubt, others on this board) would have a problem with it!

 

Oddly - as you and Expat have outlined, those who disagree with such things are on BOTH sides of the argument! :p

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This is an increasingly selfish world. China may be near the bottom, but the West is clearly catching up. Some people, including some in this forum, think they have the right to marginalize, insult, and otherwise behave pretty crappy to others. If PC has a negative conatation, its because it has been abused to the extent that it now undermines the principle it was supposed to represent. At the root of the problem is the word "correct". These days, there is no consensus on "correctness". People raised on foul language and poor manners have completely different ideas about what is correct than what has been classically considered to be "correct". Sometimes, I feel the uncouth have taken the majority position in this world. It is no wonder to me that they look down on "PC". To be "PC" is to be unselfish and empathetic: two rare qualities these days. Qualities that cant be enforced with laws.

Shining_brow:

I'm not so sure about your last statement... (but we've had this type of argument before).

 

France has the 'Good Samaritan" laws (I'm sure you're happy they use a Biblical reference there!... even though the concept was around long before the Bible was written... IIRC, Hammurabi's Code actually had a similar law). If you're at an accident, and you capable of helping - you must! China has introduced it after the FeiFei incident a couple of years ago.

 

I think enforcing it does bring about a change in attitude and consciousness. It doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen!

 

it's a way of the society to tell people (and especially kids) "This type of behaviour is NOT acceptable in a civilised society".

 

i would suggest that there is a correlation between laws and people's personal attitudes. In Aus, we started recycling in the homes a few decades ago. Obviously there was some dissent (extra costs, extra effort, etc). However, now it's become a mainstream idea and ideology... it's natural to put your recyclables into a recycling bin.

 

Not smoking in public indoor areas... came into effect a few decades ago. Now, such is so natural, that even here where people do it all the time, smokers tend not to do so, and will go outside (or, at the very least, ask first!)

 

We can argue whether that's true 'empathy' or just trained behaviour....

7 years 38 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Yet, in spite of these laws on the books, the world continues its decline into decadence. Why? Because laws can't change people's hearts and thoughts. You can teach people what you think is acceptable behaviour, but you cant control how they think. The nurturing of the heart is a personal decision and more people each day are choosing a form of morality (correctness) that is self-serving. A person who follows a set of codes just because they are enforced will seek every opportunity to find the loopholes when it benefits them. In essence, they are no better than outlaws. This is the current stigma attached to the term "PC".

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Shining_brow:

I should have emphasised the role of kids, and how laws & behaviour affect kids and their internal beliefs...

 

But - it begs the question - can empathy and compassion be taught?

7 years 38 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Can we be taught to be unselfish and show empathy? Of course! But that isn't what's at issue here. There is a great gulf between knowing and doing and some people just don't give a damn.

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Political correctness usually = stupidity.

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https://apnews.com/9271f613fb8d4750a58186a60c840b9e/Colts'-longtime-announcer-retired-after-using-racial-slur

 

Let's just put a ball gag and muzzle on every one over 60 years old and be done with this crap, problem solved, everybody happy and I can stop reading shitty stories like this.

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5 years 31 weeks ago
 
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I'm PC brah

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Just means you can't call them a homo. 

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https://www.indy100.com/article/australian-girl-sit-national-anthem-nine-year-old-school-expelled-8537346

 

The 2 percent should be given power and gold crowns of nobility, problem solved, every body happy

philbravery:

The parents pass on their pc bullshit to a new generation. ..sort of the western version of Chinese brain washing

5 years 28 weeks ago
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https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/nov/28/white-liberals-patronize-minorities-downplaying-co/

 

Progressive leftists liberals are the real racists, did not need a study or survey to tell me this, seen this my whole life. The very definition of someone who thinks they know what is best for you despite your ignorance and they know better is an intolerant snob racists. If you treat people that way, they repeat your behavior and you get a whole city of people like this, New York, San Francisco are the worst. The tolerant gays in San Francisco are more intolerant against races and religions than a klan member, but they think they are better people by education and birthright and don't see their hypocrisy from the clouds they walk on.

philbravery:

The left have started to evolve from their thuggish tactics and now infiltrate other more moderate groups and turn them to the left...Universities are leftest foundation grounds. .like Mao they brain wash and muniplacte our children in schools

5 years 17 weeks ago
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Nothing to do with the topic but I was just watching the Queensland fires on the news.

 

Aren't you from QL Phil? Hope they're nowhere near your home mate...

philbravery:

Thanks for your concern mate ...we are fine ..south of Brisbane half way to the Gold coast Although lots of spot fires on foot paths due to smokers dropping lite cigarettes.

5 years 17 weeks ago
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I think political correctness is doing a 180 turn, nowadays.

People get offended if you don't acknowledge their world views in some fashion, so controversial statements will make politicians more agreeable.

In the USA, I believe the new definition of politically correct language, involves calling Mexicans rapists, Muslims terrorists, and real news fake news.

ScotsAlan:

Its all gone topsey turvey Coin. Fake news, fake fake fake. But the establishment just wont learn.. This week the Clintons embarked on a paid speaking tour. Why? Dont they have enough money? This is what alienates ppl.

5 years 17 weeks ago
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coineineagh:

The Clintons are overly demonised. The lack of solidarity among liberal voters is what got Trump into the white house. I wanted it to be Bernie, but when he submitted to Hillary, I admit that if I were a voter, I might not have voted for Hillary either. But we need to stop taking the bait thrown out by conservatives, exploiting progressives' desire for ethics and accountability like a gimmick. Progressive candidates can't win elections and can't govern effectively because of this. Conservatives don't hold their candidates to such scrutiny, and vote happily for the most wrong-headed candidates. The USA would be much better off with a problematic Hillary than with Trump.

5 years 17 weeks ago
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ambivalentmace:

https://www.wral.com/curtains-for-the-clintons/18033351/

 

Somebody give me a box of tissues, every body around me is crying.cool When a famous journalists like Maureen Dowd is wrting an obituary before your death, a liberal who hated Reagan, it's pretty much over.(curtains). The media covered for the Clintons alot, so many issues but a financial conservative who does not care about social issues, do whatever you want just don't shove it down my throat or in my face, she lost all respect when she withheld evidence in the Nixon watergate trials that should be shared by both sides of the case and was kicked off the legal team, she bragged about getting a rapists off in court in a public interview, lawyers get off criminals all the time, but bragging about it in a public forum, these 2 events could never redeem her in my eyes if she spent the rest of her life feeding people in a leper colony.

5 years 17 weeks ago
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The Tom Green Show

 

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A if in Harry Truman's time there was a non-mainstream media.

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https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1052923/UN-migration-agreement-Angela-Merkel-EU-criticise-migration-hate-crime

 

This is really getting ridiculous, it's almost like the leaders want a new Hitler to justify their bullshit and shape world opinion and heal the masses to the their way of thinking.

 

They are sincerely rubbing peoples noses in this shit on purpose.
I actually cant figure out what to hell happen to Europe, a place where you have 28 languages but everybody is supposed to think and believe the same horseshit. Now a European army so we send Turkish muslims to France to kill protestors since local troops sympathize too much and want do the job. I thought America and Canada were multicultural hell holes but Europe is taking it to a whole new level.

philbravery:

The last time we had a flare up the Government put a blanket on the media to try cool things down before a certain minority got wiped out....it worked

5 years 17 weeks ago
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What is political correctness?

 

Well I reckon this would qualify.

 

"Bi-culturalism leading multi-culturalism" , which means when you have the annual Christmas parade through the city you replace Santa with a Maori dude wearing a traditional cloak and a Hawaiian shirt.

 

People were pissed. Kids just wanted to see a fat bearded Santa on his sleigh saying ho ho ho and got a multicultural all inclusive version instead.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/news/109029234/Santa-gets-a-remake-f...

philbravery:

Why do we have to change everything to suit crybabies that can't live without drama? Ffs that Chinese sa jeol crap is going to far

5 years 16 weeks ago
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Stiggs:

There were people turning it into a racist thing, saying that people were upset because there was a Maori guy on Santa's sleigh.

 

What a load of bullshit. People were pissed off because they took their kids to the annual Santa parade to see Santa - the Santa that all the kids see in the pictures and on TV, believe to be real and who they expect to come down the chimney and give them a new playstation.

 

They didn't get to see Santa, they got some sort of political statement instead.

 

 

5 years 16 weeks ago
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5 years 16 weeks ago
 
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I checked my FB today, came across a video of the anti PC hero Tommy Robinson.

Yeah.

Political correctness is the best that sensible people can come up with to counteract bigoted racist cunts like Tommy Robinson, without having to revert to the vulgarity of calling him a cunt.

Political correctness is the tool in the battle against the white anglo saxon football casuals, the religious bigots, the full on racists, the KKK and the Nazis.

Political correctness is an attempt to reason with these idiots. A simple.. can we apply some rules?

That has not worked. Hence ANTIFA.

Go for it ANTIFA... knock their fucking blocks off.

philbravery:

Political Correctness is the First and Last line of defense from Weak leftest minority do gooders who can't win a debate with reason or without violence .

5 years 16 weeks ago
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hi2u:

Except that antifa is basically the new KKK

5 years 16 weeks ago
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ScotsAlan:

My grandad was a member of the original antifa. He served on HMS Sheffield as a stoker. There was an issue where fellow antifa folks in their Faiery swordfish planes mistook the Sheffield for the Bismark. Bloody antifa thugs. Of course, I dont know for a fact if my grandad was involved in sinking the Bismark. He never talked about it. He used to show me photos of his fellow antifa crewmates, showed me photos of the guns, the ports they visited etc. But war stories were not in vougue in 1970's Scotland. Us kids saw them as boring grumpy old Uncle Alberts. We did not want to hear it. So they said nowt. Then came saving private Ryan etc, and me as a grown up wanted to hear the stories. But it was too late.

5 years 16 weeks ago
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philbravery:

So it's Genetic then

5 years 16 weeks ago
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Stiggs:

Yup Alan both my grandfathers were original members too.

 

I used to love hearing the war stories but they didn't talk much about it. When they did though you understood why they didn't like to.

5 years 16 weeks ago
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5 years 16 weeks ago
 
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http://www.realclearlife.com/daily-brief/snl-comic-kicked-offstage-college-group-offensive-jokes/

 

Poor college snowflakes, you need a time out, can I get you some tea, a spine, some backbone, or just lend you my pistol, put the barrel in your mouth or you might screw up trying to kill yourself and then we have to support your lazy  entitled ass for a lifetime.

philbravery:

Universities in Australia are known to be selective whom my speak unmolested. ...if you are left you can say what ever you like...however if you are someone who has a reasonable different view you will not be allowed to speak or the university will make you pay an exorbitant fee for added security because the Thuggs will be out to stop you expressing your view ...and will use violence to justify their position. ...first and last line of their doctrine. But the best part is they are unable to take responsibility for their own actions and will always blame someone else for what they have done.

5 years 16 weeks ago
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ambivalentmace:

https://metro.co.uk/2019/06/17/parent-gets-trouble-teaching-kid-correct-name-genitals-9988885/

 

Life is short and I wasted time reading this dribble, might as well share the misery. your welcome

4 years 40 weeks ago
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5 years 16 weeks ago
 
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