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Q: Why do people equate a happy family life with patriotism?
Many of the China-boosters (I'm looking at you scotsalan) are individuals who have gone native, married a local, and want to stay here. They argue that the dragon-slayers like myself are mean bitter people. Well I am mean and bitter, and getting married to a local, and have also been here several years.
-What I do not understand is why having a wife and family would make you like the regime? It is certainly possible that I could meet a nice girl in the Congo, and have a nice family, up until a death squad hacks us to death. Or steals my chickens.
-Why do people think China, and the Guys in Suits should receive any respect because you married a local girl. The vast majority of young Chinese males are hateful, xenophobic, and unpleasent, the intellectual and spiritual life is virtually zero, and the government enriches itself at the public expense.
-I am going to marry a local, and it has not improved my opinion of the party one bit.
I think some people are a little naive. Not calling out anyone in particular, but I think a big part of the reason that they feel positively about this place is that their lives specifically are relatively comfortable. And that's completely fair enough. My life is superficially excellent too, especailly in comparison with the average local.
But therein lies the naivety. For me to say, "china is an awesome place to live" is really me saying "china is an awesome place for ME to live". Me being a 28 year old financial analyst making a US salary. If i wanted to compare myself to your average zhou than yeah I'm doing fantastic (and really I have no complaints except my friends and family aren't here) but it's ignoring the fact this place is total shit for your average guy.
Yeah YOU might be comfortable here, but that's because you're exceptional. People vote with their feet, and a majority of successful people with the option not to, DONT live here. It's easier to feel like you're doing good in a 3rd world country because most people are poor, but its WAY WAY WAY cheaper to actually live great in the US than here.
I just find it kinda hypocritical that it's the same people who post about how shitty rich people are in the west and people who take advantage of their status, and say China is great when it's only great because they are *relatively* well off here.
expatlife26:
Not naming names...but scotsalan i was thinking of you.
I believe you're 100% genuine, just naive.
Not everyone who marries a local likes the regime. It is weird but they do treat you a little better when you get married. Even the idiot racists. I guess thry look at it as you think Chinese women are better than your own countries so they receive a little face from it.
I think some people are a little naive. Not calling out anyone in particular, but I think a big part of the reason that they feel positively about this place is that their lives specifically are relatively comfortable. And that's completely fair enough. My life is superficially excellent too, especailly in comparison with the average local.
But therein lies the naivety. For me to say, "china is an awesome place to live" is really me saying "china is an awesome place for ME to live". Me being a 28 year old financial analyst making a US salary. If i wanted to compare myself to your average zhou than yeah I'm doing fantastic (and really I have no complaints except my friends and family aren't here) but it's ignoring the fact this place is total shit for your average guy.
Yeah YOU might be comfortable here, but that's because you're exceptional. People vote with their feet, and a majority of successful people with the option not to, DONT live here. It's easier to feel like you're doing good in a 3rd world country because most people are poor, but its WAY WAY WAY cheaper to actually live great in the US than here.
I just find it kinda hypocritical that it's the same people who post about how shitty rich people are in the west and people who take advantage of their status, and say China is great when it's only great because they are *relatively* well off here.
expatlife26:
Not naming names...but scotsalan i was thinking of you.
I believe you're 100% genuine, just naive.
I don't think what you say is a general rule for most people married to locals.
I think it's more the other way around, actually. Personally my wife stopped believing in the fairy tale a long time ago and is about two measures more virulent as I am on some topics.
Now if it suits some to play balls with the local way of things, good for them. Personally I don't and I won't but so far my situation allows me to have it my way for the most part, so, I voice my disagreements on the Internet, I often disagrees with ScotsAlan, since you quote him, but as for the rest, their country their problem.
Personally, I don't like any regime. If you were to push me to name the best governed country in the world, I would probably go for Norway or Sweeden. But I would not want to live there because the beer is too expensive.
Do I defend China? Well, yeah, but I know it has many bad points.
What I argue against is double standards. How can British and Americans, for example, say China is aggressive when we have just had 10 year wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? How many Iraqis and Afghans died? Was it a few dozen or a few thousand. Nope it was hundreds of thousands. All in the name of regime change and freedom.
How many people have the Chinese Government bombed in the past decade?
Government suits enriching themselves at the expense of the people?
Yeah. I pay tax here, and the Government build roads, railways, play parks for the kids. Are you really saying the Government take all your money and do nothing for you?
Ha ha, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Yup, China done bad things in the past. So did the Brits, the Americans, the Germans and so on. Nobody holds Obama responsible for the genocide of the Native North Americans. Of course not. That would be stupid. But it's still the same political party in charge of America today as was in charge then. So why do people blame Xi Jinping for the cultural revolution? It makes no sense.
My view is that the Government of any country should be looked at with an open mind. They all do some good and some bad. They all make mistakes, and they all change over time as society develops.
Everyone claims to have an open mind. Well, my mind works on an evidence basis. Is my life made shit because of Government policy? I have no evidence of it. Has my local area improved through Government policy? Yes. I have seen evidence of that.
ScotsAlan:
Just to add. I am not rich. That's for sure.
I don't defend anything because I am comfortable, while ignoring the plight of the poor. I would not be a very good socialist if that's the way I worked. My views would be the same if I had a single quid to my name or a billion. During my time in China, have I seen poverty increase or decrease? Decrease of course. Could the same be said of all western countries? Not really. Different starting points of course .
RiriRiri:
Not because we criticize China does it mean we endorse the US/UK/EU/martian policies. This and the "criticize China history" angle, that's wumao level argument and I know you're better than that. Leave this to gouxiong, at least he earns for this.
coineineagh:
we blame the regime because they are recent. the culprits are still alive, or the children whose ideologies they passed on to are running the show. we blame them because they admit no error, are stubborn, make bad decisions, and the growth doesn't have much to do with them. and yes, in 100 years it would be silly to till blame the regime. but for now, it would be better if there were a different one in power.
diverdude1:
@Scots:
so, u would let Sadman roll into Kuwait? Let Uday continue dropping people into paper shredders? WTF is wrong w/ regime change? Let Taliban keep burning girls alive for doing something some man didn't like? jeez louise Scots.... kum bah yah only works for teens !
ScotsAlan:
At diverdude. I agree. So why are they not bombing Zimbabwe, North Korea, or any pther such country.
diverdude1:
not sure, and long day, too lazy to google. but didn't we have some sort of defense treaty w/ Kuwait that we would provide military protection for them? undoubtedly being an oil-rich nation brought a smile to Uncle Sam's face. NK hasn't really done anything yet to warrant catching the attention of USAF / USN.
I dunno squat about Zimbabwe and probably neither does most of the world. I imagine they will be left to suffer in silence... off the world's radar if u will.
ScotsAlan:
Yup. There was a deal. Because Kuwait bought US planes. But remember, the first gulf war expelled Iraq from Kuwait. They stopped at the border. Dick Chainy explained why... he said an invasion of Iraq would destabalize the entire region. Move on 10 years, Dick was the recently retired CEO of Haliburton, and he said go for Iraq. Haliburton made a lot of money.
Generally speaking, people who are well off in China will enjoy China, and people who aren't so well off in China will hate China. Like Scots said, every government does shitty things, but love of China should be distinguished from love of the ccp. The ccp is crap, but it doesn't directly affect me, and I can still enjoy many things about China.
Just wan to chime in on the generalization that those who married locals are China lovers.
I certainly don't hesitate to speak out about the things I find wrong, but it depends on the audience. E.g. my wifes old grandmother, why would I spend time trying to tell her that the country she loves suck, my wifes mother is in some kind of la-la-land and is beyond reach (she found God, so she is like all Chinese blessed and waiting to go to heaven)
Most of the people around me and my wife don't love their country, they simply accept that in the present situation they cannot change it, this partially due to the brainwashing that democracy doesn't work for big populations.
Hotwater:
In my experience with younger educated Chinese (mainly Engineers) I'd disagree with your last statement. Most of them quite clearly told me that they "loved their country but not their government".
mike695ca:
While democracy could work un large populations. Peoplr usually equate democracy with a high standard of living and social benefits. And in this light, it has never worked in a large population
Scandinavian:
yes, but democracy is about freedom for the individual and prevention of power crazed nutters in killing the population. It has nothing to do with materialistic shit like iPhones and Toyotas. And this is the thing that no one in China knows. When thinking "Democracy" they think, US -> Rich County... but then they think China -> Rich country and thus no need for democracy and here ends the thought process.
The same reason conservatives value family men. If you are partnered with a woman who focuses on safety and stability for her offspring, you are less likely to challenge the status quo. Risking your own safety for what you believe to be morality and fairness is one thing, putting a wife and kids on the line is another. You become less of an unpredictable variable in the system, and more of an easily calculable constant.
Im married to a local and I hate the place haha.
I argue for China sometimes but its not really about China at all. I am arguing against hypocrisy.
I hate that every story on here thats plainly listed as " wierd news" becomes a conference on whats wrong with China when the exact same things plainly happen in large numbers everywhere else in the world.
Im pretty sure that the patent for gold diggin is held somewhere in California.
Foreigners are just as likely to cheat on their partners, here or back home.
There is racism and xenophobia everywhere. Everywhere.
It really bothers me that people on this forum are so close minded and stupid that they will bitch about being generalized in one sentence and then do the exact same thing to the Chinese in another. It doesnt make any sense.
As for backing the " regime" . Whatever, call me a commie. But I see lots of pretentious long ass posts trying to compare it to something witty or anylize it, yet no one has ever bothered to stop and think why.
I think the government is so repressive because they have no other choice. Chinese people are GENERALLY stupid sheep. Ill never forget the one time they allowed protests over that Japanese island bullshit. Chinese lost their minds. They became a dangerous mob over something they had no passion about and really knew nothing of. They resorted to destroying anything with a Japanese name knowing full well it was only hurting China.
This is exactly why video sites are heavily banned here but you can read all kinds of embarrassing China stories on Yahoo or else where. Its in English. China isnt worried about educated people at all. Which is why in a place like Guangdong BBC and CNN are in regular cable packages. But in Sichuan satellite TV is illegal.
Chinese people are not ready yet.
And if the main job of a government is to help the livelihood of the population, well I think China has done a far better job of that in the last 10 years then many western countries.
The future doesnt look that amazing, but I doubt it would with Obama at the helm either.
The biggest thing that frustrates me is that no where else in thew world is better. People are just unhappy people and want to bitch. These same people would be bitching about every other country in the world if they moved back for a year. In fact a little bit of the real world might put things in perspective. Im betting some would come running back to China pretty quick. ex. Hulk
DrMonkey:
Agree on a lot of points, especially "governments tends to reflect the population they govern". However, in China, powers-to-be work hard to be sure the common people will never be able to handle themselves, by suffocated any tiny attempt of initiative for anything public & political. Justify harsh power with general irresponsibility, and makes people completely irresponsible at the same time, that is genius...
Scandinavian:
Good stuff in your posts. But don't you think the protest against China went as far as they did because the government wanted to make sure everyone understand what complete assholes all Japanese are ? If car flipping was not accepted car flipping would not have happened (more than once)
mike695ca:
I agree they probably allowed to continue to show japan whats up. I mean, thats why they allowed it to happen in the first place. I am certainly not saying the government is filled with good intentions , im just highlighting that protest to show what could happen if Chinese where granted all the freedoms in the west. You think theres even a small possibility for peaceful umbrella protests in China? It would be anarchy. Self preservation by the government or not it would have huge effects. None good. I just think people forgot to take populations and culture into account with these east|west right vs wrong arguments about how things are done. The fact is governming a billion and a half people is not even in the same planet as governing 10 million. Every country with a huge population is a hell hole. Brazil, India, Indonesia. All corrupt, backwards dirty with a very low value of life. I dont think its a coincidence. And when you put China there side by side it doesnt look so bad. Only America can say its a large population with a Western quality of life. And most would agree that its a pretty messed up place right now. Also, it surprises me that people can be here so long and still not see a difference between a western mind and a chinese one. They act like if the goverbment just granted all the same freedoms and stopped all corruption overnight that it would be joy in the streets. It would take generations. You know something like less than 15 percent of Chinese pay any taxes? Your an idiot if you pay. Sense of community and helping others and careing about your country. Not just saying it. This stuff doesnt happen overnight. And chinese are not equipt. I think if you take any idea of what the government SHOULD do, there would be a logical explanation for why it doesnt. There is a reason we are echinacities geniuses and not running countries.
ScotsAlan:
I agree about the tax issue Mike. I was thinking about this just yesterday as I went past a government office. I was thinking why do Chinese officials see the population as there to serve them. I came to the conclusion it was probably because its such a hard job to get any money out of the locals.
Completely agree with Scotsalan, China has pored more concrete in the last 10 years that many developed countries had not done in their lifetime. Its good to know that tax money is not being wasted. The fact is in spite of the biggest population (which surely is a disadvantage) now China is been compared and expected to compete with countries like US and UK. How many other developing countries you say the same things about?
To answer the question- I think even if they do, I see nothing wrong in that, unless you know what you are talking about and have facts in place...
DrMonkey:
You measure usage of resources by the quantity of poured concrete :) ? You compare with countries with a more mature & geographically balanced infrastructure ? About money usage efficiency, China is not exactly a textbook example. See how much subsidies are required to make the bullet train affordable for the people that needs it the most. See how close-to-bankrupts local authorities used stimulus money to create office space and accommodation that nobody bought. See how industrial parks have been built for fullfilling a non-existent demand. See how many industries can run only because they get massive subsidies, without turning a profit for years (example : solar panel industry). And so on, and so on, meanwhile, still no social security net (in 2013, there was promises of public health care improvements, nothing yet).
RiriRiri:
Exactly Monkey.
You're not going to call me wealthy just because I landed a nice 50% interest loan, for buying 5D smell-o-tron duper-flat screen TV I'll use once a year when I have guests, are you.
What you will call me is a moron.
Any country in the world willing to dump its civil society, its trust, its environment and any remnant of culture it has for moar monies can do just as fine as China, just for as long as it has resources to waste.
Scandinavian:
Chinas success is not in spite of its large population, it is because of it.
indalkar:
I am just guessing that you guys have never traveled to countries like India, Bangladesh, Pakistan? the concrete comment will be easier to understand then...
for a sec, stop comparing China with the west and compare it with other developing countries... you will see my point, things that west take for granted are luxuries in other parts of the world.
ambivalentmace:
After being here 8 years, the quality of the concrete is suspect.
what is the national anthem of china? the meek shall inherit the earth!!!, no thats the national motto.
ambivalentmace:
Prison for ripping up a flag and kicked out of school for saying China in not that great.
