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Q: Do you think insurance system will change people's relationship?
filial piety is always stressed in Chinese culture. It embodys in two aspects. one is children support parents financially when parents get old. The other is children look after parents when parents get serious ill, especially when they are bedridden. This is probably why Chinese gave birth kids back to 30 years ago.
There is a circle. people give birth babies, when they get old , babies talk care of them.
Nowadays, insurance has cover most people, especially younger people. At least, young people like my peers have social insurance. Personally I buy business insurance as supplementary offer for quality life.
Do you think this kind of circle,culture thing, will end because of insurance?
Well, it depends which part of "Western" : in most of West Europe, all citizens is entitled to healthcare and retirement pension, with a minimum even if you are jobless or with a minimum wage job. Even better, if you are jobless, you receive an income from the gouvernment. School is free, really free, kindergarten too, etc. You won't live like a king with that, but that's enough to stay healthy and well fed. That is not for free, you pay taxes for this if you have an income.
Eastern Europe, no idea how it works there.
USA seems very different, you pay less income tax, but you receive much less from the gouvernment. I don't know how it is in Australia, New-Zealand, and countries you consider "Western".
So, for Europe with the extensive healthcare & welfare system, does it breaks "the circle" ? It's considered normal to plan your life, your finance, so that you rely on yourself, not on your parents, your kids or anybody else. If you need a loan, you would ask the bank, not your kids or your parents. That's the theory, in practice, it happens fairly often but it's something people won't boast about. Being dependent on your parents when you are adult will make you look like a loser. In general, people have their pride in being self-reliant.
It's considered normal to help your old parents, but it's not about money : spending time with them, fixing something at their home, taking care of their garden, etc. My parents are glad to give a hand : borrowing tools, helping for home improvement, etc. Someone who ignores his parents and let them rot would be seen as a careless person.
The state welfare makes people less insecure about money and future, but it does not make them ignore their family. In my case, it allowed my parents to be alive rather than dead, as we couldn't not afford their cancer treatment, state healthcare paid for it.
Scandinavian:
Proper social insurance is also outlined as one of the main driving factors why Scandinavia scores high on happiness indexes. People have less to worry about. Big brother is not only watching but also caring.
DrMonkey:
It's also why the social inequalities are small compared to many, many other countries... But boooooo hissssss evil commies stole my money booooo, Heil Ayn Rand.
ScotsAlan:
Only Europe understands true socialism Dr M. Because Europe has it. Any party that wants to remove it will never be voted in. European voters occilate between left and right to balance out the excess of each, but at the end of the day, the principles will endure :-)
Shining_brow:
In AusLandia, the government subsidises education and healthcare. For the most part, if you have an emergency (or not), you can go to the hospital for free. The governnent will pick up the full tab, but you might have to pay for out-patient medicines (usually about 20% of the real value, if they're on the PBS - Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme - ie, the drugs they're subsidising).
Doctors in their own practice can be free, or you can pay up front for them and get it back.. or go completely private.
The biggest differences are waiting times (and, sometimes, comfort levels, ie nice comfy single room in private hospital, or shared basic rooms in public).
Education is subsidised, and for university, you can defer the costs (tuition fees) for 5 years post-graduation, and then re-pay through the tax system as you make money (at a small %, interest is inflation rate).
Retirement and pension - everyone who earns an income ought to be paying into superannuation, although lower incomes (below the poverty line) will not.
There is NO fiddling the books to cheat on taxes, other than straight cash in hand jobs.
Other than tax and a small superannuation contribution (% based, which you can increase), EVERYTHING else comes from the employer as part of the costs of employing you! Social security and all that stuff is all from tax, and not identified at the employer contribution level.
Oh, and one for the Americans... in my state, we were either subscribed for ambulance trips, or you paid a fortune for them! Government changed it, and added a surcharge to ALL residents on their electricity bill, so now it's "free"! We bitched and groaned about it, but it's better to have everyone give a tiny amount so that everyone has a service when and where they need it, rather than be worried about $800 bills when it is needed!
DrMonkey:
Australian welfare system seems very. very close to the French one. The contributions are partly paid directly by the employer, partly by the worker. No idea why it's split in 2, but us French like to split hairs in 4. The one to fiddle taxes are the multinational companies, but our state is currently going after them with the big guns, with mitigated success.
How insurance works between relationships in the west?
In most western countries insurance does not come into it as healthcare is free. Well, not free because you do have to pay social security, but if you have no money you still get free health care.
Not sure how it works in USA where health care is not free.
Chinese social insurance includes healthcare. above 80% expenditure has been covered by social insurance.
social insurance deducted small part from your salary at certain proportion, and large part from your employer. It includes five type of insurance, like healthcare, endowment insurance, maternity insurance, work-related injury insurance, unemployment insurance.
For the maximum of healthcare benefit, I report lower salary to insurance system so that the system can deduct small amount from my salary. But, in future, when I retire, I could get lower pension too.
I work for family business, so deduction in total is all paid on my own for social insurance system. I pay around 1500yuan per month.
maybe in the near future, I will pay more for the system for getting more pension.
DrMonkey:
If healthcare covers 80% expenses, how come so many people in China die of untreated cancers, compared to other countries... and why those stories of farmers or miners who have to beg to get a treatment for a cancer or some other nasty conditions ? I've plenty of examples in my family in law : some died of cancer because they could not afford the treatment, too expensive. Why they didn't get covered at 80% ? Every time my wife went to the hospital, she had to pay full price, for the consultation and for the medication.
ScotsAlan:
Here is a good example, in my opinion, of the difference between western and Chinese thinking. You declare a lower income to reduce your tax obligation. In China that is something to boast about ( not saying you are boasting blah, I'm generalizing). Because the Chinese mind automatically links payments made to services gained for the person paying. In the west we just pay up. Most people do not try to cheat the system. And even though we have to pay by law, we hope to never have to use the services we pay for. There is a subtle difference in the way of thinking that I can't explain very well.
blah:
@DrMonkey, Maybe the people you are talked about do not have social insurance. If they join the system, their expense will be covered. Children dont pay for the system, maybe the system does not cover them.
people having job will pay for the system.
blah:
@ScotsAlan yes, you can say I am selfish. only thinking about personal benefit.
I am not prone to use healthcare system if I am alive and kicking, just in case.
But, I definitely will use pension when I retire, so I will declare more salary .
again, I am thinking myself again!
DrMonkey:
@blah I think we might be talking about different things. In Europe, the healthcare, welfare, etc... It's taken directly from your income, and it's about 40% to 50% of your income that go away for that. You don't choose to pay for it, you *have* to pay for it, or you will have to face justice. If you are lying about your income like you do, you will pay heavy fine ... and it's really enforced. However, all citizen have access to the healthcare/welfare, free education, etc., no matter how much you paid, and even if you can't pay for it (say, because you are jobless, retired or just very poor).
From what you say, that 80% in China, it's for those who decided to pay for it, and only them, it's not different from a private insurance. That's a different thing from welfare : welfare is (almost) unconditional, it's for *all* the citizens, with no distinction of income, situation, age, gender, etc.
blah:
@DrMonkey civil servents and state-owned company employees will deducted certain proportion from their real incomes. It seems income tax system is not compatible with social insurance system, so some companies can do the trick like what I do.
I think this situation would not last that long time, sooner or later, the problem will be fixed up , like paying fine if you do the trick.
DrMonkey:
Ok, there's the explanation why so many Chinese do not have access to that, especially those who need it the most : it's only if you work for the government... In Europe, it's for everyone. Other Western country, it might be the same or different.
Well, it depends which part of "Western" : in most of West Europe, all citizens is entitled to healthcare and retirement pension, with a minimum even if you are jobless or with a minimum wage job. Even better, if you are jobless, you receive an income from the gouvernment. School is free, really free, kindergarten too, etc. You won't live like a king with that, but that's enough to stay healthy and well fed. That is not for free, you pay taxes for this if you have an income.
Eastern Europe, no idea how it works there.
USA seems very different, you pay less income tax, but you receive much less from the gouvernment. I don't know how it is in Australia, New-Zealand, and countries you consider "Western".
So, for Europe with the extensive healthcare & welfare system, does it breaks "the circle" ? It's considered normal to plan your life, your finance, so that you rely on yourself, not on your parents, your kids or anybody else. If you need a loan, you would ask the bank, not your kids or your parents. That's the theory, in practice, it happens fairly often but it's something people won't boast about. Being dependent on your parents when you are adult will make you look like a loser. In general, people have their pride in being self-reliant.
It's considered normal to help your old parents, but it's not about money : spending time with them, fixing something at their home, taking care of their garden, etc. My parents are glad to give a hand : borrowing tools, helping for home improvement, etc. Someone who ignores his parents and let them rot would be seen as a careless person.
The state welfare makes people less insecure about money and future, but it does not make them ignore their family. In my case, it allowed my parents to be alive rather than dead, as we couldn't not afford their cancer treatment, state healthcare paid for it.
Scandinavian:
Proper social insurance is also outlined as one of the main driving factors why Scandinavia scores high on happiness indexes. People have less to worry about. Big brother is not only watching but also caring.
DrMonkey:
It's also why the social inequalities are small compared to many, many other countries... But boooooo hissssss evil commies stole my money booooo, Heil Ayn Rand.
ScotsAlan:
Only Europe understands true socialism Dr M. Because Europe has it. Any party that wants to remove it will never be voted in. European voters occilate between left and right to balance out the excess of each, but at the end of the day, the principles will endure :-)
Shining_brow:
In AusLandia, the government subsidises education and healthcare. For the most part, if you have an emergency (or not), you can go to the hospital for free. The governnent will pick up the full tab, but you might have to pay for out-patient medicines (usually about 20% of the real value, if they're on the PBS - Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme - ie, the drugs they're subsidising).
Doctors in their own practice can be free, or you can pay up front for them and get it back.. or go completely private.
The biggest differences are waiting times (and, sometimes, comfort levels, ie nice comfy single room in private hospital, or shared basic rooms in public).
Education is subsidised, and for university, you can defer the costs (tuition fees) for 5 years post-graduation, and then re-pay through the tax system as you make money (at a small %, interest is inflation rate).
Retirement and pension - everyone who earns an income ought to be paying into superannuation, although lower incomes (below the poverty line) will not.
There is NO fiddling the books to cheat on taxes, other than straight cash in hand jobs.
Other than tax and a small superannuation contribution (% based, which you can increase), EVERYTHING else comes from the employer as part of the costs of employing you! Social security and all that stuff is all from tax, and not identified at the employer contribution level.
Oh, and one for the Americans... in my state, we were either subscribed for ambulance trips, or you paid a fortune for them! Government changed it, and added a surcharge to ALL residents on their electricity bill, so now it's "free"! We bitched and groaned about it, but it's better to have everyone give a tiny amount so that everyone has a service when and where they need it, rather than be worried about $800 bills when it is needed!
DrMonkey:
Australian welfare system seems very. very close to the French one. The contributions are partly paid directly by the employer, partly by the worker. No idea why it's split in 2, but us French like to split hairs in 4. The one to fiddle taxes are the multinational companies, but our state is currently going after them with the big guns, with mitigated success.
"Nowadays, insurance has cover most people, especially younger people. At least, young people like my peers have social insurance. "
BS
