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Posts: 1932

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Q: How do you deal with the moral problem of living in a state which goes against your value system?

Trying to phrase that in the most politically correct way possible. And I don't mean this to be any of that "if you don't like it, then leave" ridiclous nonsense. I'm interested in exploring the shades of gray.

A lot of the foreigners here still strongly believe in a certain style of government China doesn't practice. And are horrified at China's treatment of its non-Han. And the policies restricting religion.

Likewise, many of you have difficulty with the fact that life-imprisonment is the go-to punishment for minor crimes, and firing squad is the default punishment for anything else. China executes more people than any other country on earth accounting four 80% of the world's executions, according to the numbers the government provides (and of course there could be more...)

I'm not asking whether these things are good or bad, but rather, if you take an ethical issue with them, how do you justify staying here, paying taxes, buying things (paying taxes indirectly, about 5-20% on every purchase, according to government's own estimate), contributing to society, and generally upholding a system you loath?

12 years 24 weeks ago in  General  - China

 
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Posts: 2536

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An interesting question.  Although I don't quite fit the typical full time expat mode that most do here, I will try to answer from my perspective.
Prior to coming here the one thing I enjoyed the most was political and idealogical debate.
Then I was asked to spend 6-8 months a year in China for my company, and I decided to accept, as I thought it would be an interesting experience.
In doing so I made a decision to keep my mouth shut and not not discuss my beliefs with anyone here (I don't meet expats much).
I work for a company that does far more than contribute to local tax base...we spend millions here to build our products to sell back home.
Do I think that by our company using Chinese factories is somehow condoning or agreeing with the actions and policies of the government here...absolutley not.  We have to make our stuff somewhere and if not here than some other cheap labour nation that probably has a worse track record than the local government.
I learned long ago that even though I would love to see the Canadian or US governments make changes that I would support, I gave up long ago believing this was even possible.  So how is China any different.
Living here or paying taxes or contributing to the economy does in no way insinuate that expats here also support the actions of the government on many levels....IMHO.

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12 years 24 weeks ago
 
Posts: 3025

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Some things in life for me are or bring me a true joy.  And one of them is to be able to discuss at length socio-political problems.  Back at home, I always felt free to join one or many of these, sometimes lasting for hours, with a few drinks, and with people who disussed issues with vehemence, and not personalities or shouting when ran out of arguments.

BUT AS THE DUDE DID, WHEN I CAME TO CHINA I VOWED THAT THEIR POLITICAL PROBLEMS AND ALSO RELIGIOUS PROBLEMS WERE "TABU" SUBJECTS FOR ME.  So, I will make a strong effort to keep my opinions to myself out of respect for the country that has allowed me to be here as a guest in my quest for happiness.

But all I would say is for you to name a country on this Earth that today does not have at least one socio-economical-political problem in their hands, and then I might be willing to join a chat on this subject area.

And please, do not forget that while many worry about the rights of criminals and law violators, no one seems to worry or express concerns about the rights of their victims.  I do not advocate to take the life of any human, criminal or not.  But wouldn't it be poetic justice in a way if a criminal took one life, to take his as a form of punishment?. 

I honestly do not agree that life imprisonment is the on-going fate for minor crimes here, I have read of many sentences way short of that.  And sometimes I felt that back home we were harsh with petty criminals while allowing the higher ups to continue amasing large fortunes without touching them.  Somehow I do feel better in a place where no matter how high you are, if exposed or found out, you pay for what you did wrong.  No one throws you a "towel" in exchange for a political "donation".

Enough said, going to make me some coffee for breakfast and see the sun raising over the Yongjiang River.

kchur:

Happy, can you read Chinese? I'd like to show you some government websites that point out that capital punishment is used for relatively minor economic crimes that, in the states, would get you a year in minimum security, tops. It was also proudly announced (on the Chinese version of China daily, but not the English version), that hundreds of death sentences were to be handed out after the three most recent ethnic riots (two Tea-bit one Wee-gar. How many death sentences were handed out in the States after the Rodney King riots? And they Rodney King riots weren't conducted by B*ddhist monks.) "Treason" is one of the most common reasons to give the death sentence in China, and I'd like you to guess how broadly they define treason. With all due respect - I consider you to be, easily, one of the best posters on the site - I feel that you are dancing around the issue a bit here.

12 years 24 weeks ago
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12 years 24 weeks ago
 
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Did HappyExPat just say that nobody gets away with crimes, even if they're higher ups? Um...I'm going to laugh now. Usually the ones that pay for it are the unlucky types from the lower rungs of society. For example, the prostitutes instead of the pimps, or the "temporary workers" getting fired for a failure. How many times have we heard stories of political leaders getting fired, then getting a new job somewhere else months later? Besides the fact that carrying drugs gets the death sentence? Talk about overkill.

I don't condone this, but I'm not a Chinese citizen. I'll be here for a while and then I'm going to leave. I have no control over what goes on here, just as I don't really have any control of what goes on in my own country. I don't like watching the news. It's not that I'm trying to tune it out, I just don't want to fed with it all the time. It's not my country, it's not my issue. I talk about it with some of my students once in a while, but they don't have much of an opinion on it. I try not to bring it up. Since I can't change with it, I deal with it, that's my way of putting up with it.

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12 years 24 weeks ago
 
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In the usual way that all of us expats do - ignorance, hypocrisy and a lot of sticking my head in the sand.

We do, in the most important way possible, aid the Chinese government carry out all its human rights abuses - by giving them my money (tax). Also, by choosing to come to this country. Like all of us, I had a choice on where to go to. (even those who are here because their job sent them - we all had a choice!). We didn't choose any other country to go to, nor give our money to.

For my part, I try (in my own small way) to make change... I try to tell my students to be the best person they can be. I introduce topics in ethics and morality - and a sense of self. I know that this country is changing (as everything does). I know that it is improving. And, it's quite possible that one of my students ends up being one of those individuals that makes a difference - or knows someone who does... or knows someone who knows someone... or.... you get the picture!

And, I also acknowledge that my choice to come here does send a message that I condone, even in some small way, the actions of the government, of bribery and corruption, of the scams, of the slave labour... after all, there are places on this planet that we would choose not to go to because we object to some elements of what's going on there... I refuse to go to the USA while they mandate that any visitor to the country must be treated like a criminal (mandatory fingerprinting at Border Control). Some others may choose not to go to Zimbabwe, because of their military government.. or Libya (pre-civil war), or Saudi Arabia because of how they treat women, or lots of other countries...

Ain't it grand how we can justify self-interest???

Good question Kchur! Thumbs-up!

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12 years 24 weeks ago
 
Posts: 458

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Simple: I'm using the money saved here to subsidise doing volunteer work in Northern India.

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12 years 24 weeks ago
 
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personally i disassociate myself from the problems here. not my country not my problem. (it's awful, but i didnt come here to go to jail)

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12 years 24 weeks ago
 
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I do not believe that there is a foreigner on this Board currently living in the PRC who is here against her or his own wishes.  That being said, we, and you, are here by choice and by an act of free will.

Some are here because they couldn't find work in their own respective countries; some are here because of an interest in China and things Chinese; some are here because they are maladroits, here, there and everywhere else; some are here because they are married to a local.  There are many reasons.

China tends, for whatever reasons, to attract a disporportionate amount of freaky, drunken, drugged, neurotic foreigners.

That being said, the truth is simple, the truth is blunt. If you don't like it here, if you can't fit in here, if you don't like the system and find it necessary to bash all things Chinese, then frankly, don't be here.  Just leave.  Do the country a favor and leave. Do yourself a favor and take your problems back home.  It's a harsh truth but an accurate one.

kchur:

You need to learn to let go of your bitterness, especially on this magical day of celebration and good will towards man.

12 years 23 weeks ago
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981977405:

Firstly, do you mean "goodwill" or "good will"? Secondly, there is no bitterness at all, just disappointment in the conduct of certain individuals here in what I regard to be very highly improper behavior but then again, it takes all kinds, Kchur, doesn't it?

12 years 23 weeks ago
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kchur:

tsk tsk. So bitter, Mr. Bicycle Man, so bitter.

12 years 23 weeks ago
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981977405:

Kchur, it's time for your Lamotrigine again. Be good and go take it and all the best for the holidays.

12 years 23 weeks ago
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12 years 23 weeks ago
 
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