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Q: Non-native teachers misunderstand economics
Listen i've said this before, and this only applies to people coming from developing countries, so not...say germans or koreans etc.
We always see these posts from people from poorer countries complaining that they can't get legal work visas to teach even though their english is good. What I think they miss is that if they could get legal work visas the jobs would get worse, as bad as it seems. The alternative is worse.
The best possible situation for a Kenyan for example wanting to teach in China for a good wage is the current one where it is very difficult but not impossible. You could make the same argument for a Moldovan too, any place where the local income is such that it's a no brainer to want to teach in China.
The reason for this is that the price level for english teaching is set by the official need to hire people from developed countries. They need to pay a minimum of around 10K RMB/mth to get any Canadians or Aussies to come here because the other options for them are better. It's NOT because God named the white man the chosen race and the Chinese love to pay them out of respect, they hate to pay them. But they HAVE to make teaching english in China more attractive than working at mcdonalds in England to get the people the law requires. Blame minimum wage laws in the west.
But if they could hire people from...say Kenya, legally as English teachers it would not be for the same salary. Good english speakers in Kenya are very common, but the unemployment rate is almost 40% and the GDP per capita is less than $1,500 per year.
If a kenyan could easily just go find work teaching english in China for over ten times their per capita GDP the market would be flooded immediately. Salaries would go down because there is no reason to pay 10,000 RMB to attract a Kenyan english teacher because that is superior to their other options. If they offered 2,500 rmb per month for all day everyday that would still be enough to be worth the trouble of many people to move here.
Is this fair in a moral sense? Of course not. Its just economics. If it was legal to issue Z-visas for english teachers from countries such as Kenya it would not create a world of great jobs for them, it would only destroy the decent jobs that exist for people from developed countries.
Also, don't think for one second that local employers pay 10,000 RMB + to an American because they admire their beautiful white skin. They pay the absolute minimum they think they can to hire the person they think they need. If there was a poor, white, exclusively english speaking country where they could legally hire teachers at 2000 RMB/mth they would do it every time over hiring an American for 10000.
The only reason that any non-native can make good money here is because the system makes it hard for them. So I get that it can be really frustrating, but understand the alternative is much worse.
I say more power to them if they want to work you know? Nobody should read this as me putting anybody down or acting like they don't deserve to work. There's no DESERVE in wage economics. There is COMMAND. You COMMAND a high wage via your bargaining power. Unless you want to personally take credit for western labour activism from the victorian era or something.
So I guess what i'm saying to these guys is just try and make the best of it and do the best you can to make your $ while you can.
Minimum wage scale, developed, underdeveloped country --- it is all immaterial.
It is not important if your grammar is immaculate or you know thesaurus by heart .......
The gist of the matter is that Chinese love to learn their English from native English speakers.
And they are ready to pay for what they want !
No need to understand deep economics involved in this....
its simple demand and supply ratio .... !!
Shining_brow:
You've missed an important point... even native language speakers from the Big 5 don't get the job unless they look the part - the part that the locals want! If you're not of caucasian ancestry, you're a 3rd or 4th generation Korean, or Japanese, or Chinese, etc etc, you have very little chance of scoring a job here. It's NOT about linguistic ability - it's about racism - pure and simple!
Accident of birth.
To claim a higher wage because of where you were born is not a free economy model.
What you are suggesting here is protectionism based on place of birth.
China may demand native speakers but big business does not. If you phone a UK bank, for example, you will more than likely talk to an indian in an outsourced call center.
Why should English teachers be classified by place of birth? No other profession is.
I mean, you cant pick and choose globalization. You cant say, for example, manufacturing jobs should go to low cost countries but those countries have to hire high cost native speakers.
My Latin teacher at school was not Roman. He was Scottish. So was my French teacher.
If western education does not hire "birthright" native speakers, why should china?
If you subscribe to the free market, it should be unconditional. If I want to hire an English teacher to teach my daughter, why should I not be allowed to hire the most cost effective (cheapest) option. I would want to hire ability and skill, not be forced to employ a specific person because of where they were born.
I am a native speaker of course, but my English is crap. I know Russians, Syrians and many others who have much better spoken English than me. Trust me on that 
expatlife26:
you misunderstand me.
I wrote that the current situation is the best one, where they can sneak in at a wage level set for westerners.
That if it was legal for them to work here they'd get screwed by a much lower salary because they have no lower bargaining power.
Sinobear:
Where I find most people missing the point on this debate is where parents want their kids to end up.
To simply improve one's English - any competent and capable speaker will do regardless of country of origin or native language.
Whereas most parents want to send their kids to the U.K, Canada, the U.S, Australia, etc., they want teachers who are representative of the target countries.
This is where the real racism comes into play - parents and administrators who cannot conceive of, or get their heads around, that black people and people of other ethnic origins can actually be representative of the target countries.
ScotsAlan:
I agree with Sinobear.
China is racist, and if parents want their little mite to study in the UK, they will pay a premium for a British teacher.
Wage scales are dictated by the local market, not by the GDP of a persons country of origin.
If you are a white blue eyed qulified teacher from the US, the threat to your income does not come from some black dude from a non native country. It comes from the younger and whiter American dude who will work on a tourist visa for less than they could earn flipping burgers back home.
I think this is a China specific issue that comes from the general ignorance of the local populace.
Take the UK for example. An Afghan medical doctor, smuggled into the UK on the back of a truck might end up working for a gangmaster in a field somewhere for a pittance of a wage. That's black market.
But the same doctor, if he were working legally in the UK as a doctor, would be paid the UK doctoring rate. He would not be paid less because of the GDP of his home country.
Here is a question for you expatlife.
If you were hiring teachers for a training center, and you had a 26 year old white blue eyed blond haired Kenyan, with no teaching experience, and then you had a 45 year old black Kenyan with a Masters in English and 10 years ESL experience, who would you employ?
Alas, this sort of discrimination in China won't end so long as the officail Government line is the only issue work permits for ESL teachers from certain countries.
And this does not just affect ESL. There is all sorts of this stupidity here. Flight attendants, for example, must be young single females. If they get married they have to leave. Nurses in hospitals are women. And I have never seen a female cook in a restraunt. It's a sexist racist place.
rasklnik:
Dear God SctosAlan, Latin has NO native speakers. So it is a second language by default...what a terrible argument.
-At University of Delaware about half of the professors were native speakers of their languages, but they also knew about 4-6 others...
ScotsAlan:
Yes, I know there are no native Latin speakers. That was my point.
expatlife26:
YES IT DOES have to do with the local economies of the countries of origin.
They have to pay wages that will make Americans etc willing to come here, so they have to be competitive with replacement-level jobs working at clothing stores and flipping burgers in the west.
GDP is an inexact measure of that, but it's relevant.
expatlife26:
To answer your point about the afghan medical doctor being paid based on his country of origin.
Thats a totally different situation and let me explain why. That afghan doctor, who can emigrate and get certified to practice medicine in the UK is no longer an "afghan doctor", they are now a British doctor who happens to be of Afghan descent.
It's an entirely different situation for a labor market which is explicitly for temporary foreign labor. Then it is almost exclusively based on local wages in the target recruitment markets. Look at countries in the middle east which import construction labor from south asia and basically treat them almost like slaves. I would imagine that if skilled, literate Germans or French construction workers were willing to take those jobs at those conditions that they would be hired. But they would be crazy to because their options at home are better than slaving away to build soccer stadiums in Qatar.
On the flip side though, if Qatar had a law that ONLY German or American construction workers could be hired than the prevailing wage and conditions would be much higher. If a handful of south asian laborers could sneak into the system by claiming to be Americans, their overall conditions would still be infinitely better than what they are now.
The difference between skilled immigration in a developed country and unskilled migrant labor is night and day and I'm sure you know this. I mean hell, look at how China provides shitty dorm style housing for their own provincial migrants, yet even the most modest uni teaching contracts for westerners out in the middle of no where provide for private apartments. It's all just bargaining power.
Westerners won't share a studio apartment with 6 other people, wai di ren will because if they don't take the job somebody else will.
NONE of this is fair. ALL of it is true.
Wrong!!!!
Last time I checked: teachers at a decent school in Africa( Kenya as well) were earning USD1000.00 or more, maybe less in government schools but in a decent school, you can earn more than a thousand.
Tut tut!! So what's your point really? Racist anti African sentiment in a country thats not even yours, get outta here!!!
expatlife26:
Did you actually read what I wrote? I'm not against them teaching here and wish them best of luck. I'm not a teacher I don't care either way.
Im talking about supply/demand wage economics.
That if it was legal for them to teach here, the salaries for them would suck. So the best situation for them is that they can slip through the cracks now.
expatlife26:
"No"? so you DIDN'T read what I wrote because I am too condescending...well how do you know if you didn't f-ing read it?
Iron12:
ok expatlife26, i have re read your post because previously i was blown away by what i perceived to be the "winds of segregation and injustice..."
I have cooled down now and am looking at your post dispassionately and objectively.
Ok , what u are saying in a nutshell is that: Non Natives should make hay while the sun shines because this ESL industry has thrived due to the mere fact that China needs westerners : particularly from the Big 5 or 6.
China driven by the need to assimilate with the fair skinned people from the big 5 or 6 because that's where they want their kids to end up going to. so they created a hunger and thirst to learn English which has become a bit insatiable now that's why some schools even take non natives.
on the economical side of things they had to attract the big 5 or 6 with a handsome package...which the "non natives" dont rightfully deserve.
Fine
expatlife26:
No you're still missing it.
Nobody deserves it or doesn't deserve it.
It's that employers have to pay that to get westerners which are in demand and legally required in most cases.
Deserve is a moral statement, and has no place in the discussion of market forces.
A skilled portfolio manager commands a high salary, they don't necessarily deserve it. But it's what their company feels they must pay to reap the marginal benefit from having that guy on their team...and not a cent more.
I used this example talking to Scots as well, Look at countries in the middle east which import construction labor from south asia and basically treat them almost like slaves. I would imagine that if Germans or French construction workers were willing to take those jobs at those conditions that they would be hired. But they would be crazy to because their options at home are better than slaving away to build soccer stadiums in Qatar.
On the flip side though, if Qatar had a law that ONLY German or American construction workers could be hired then the prevailing wage and conditions would be much better. If a handful of south asian laborers could sneak into the system by claiming to be Americans, their overall conditions would still be infinitely better than what they are now.
I genuinely believe, I guess because I'm a cynical person, that if there was a legal labor market in China for people from very undeveloped places the conditions would be absolutely appalling. Look at how migrants from the inland provinces get treated in coastal cities.
Picture that, but for even more desperate people.
Fair has nothing to with any of this.
Iron12:
then with all your long texts you are still condescending....and i will blatantly say it for you"i wish this was an all white market"
but economics my "fiend"
not too many white guys to fill this 3 point something billion vacuum
tell u what; take your racism somewhere else like ....hmmm Planet Mars for example...or Pluto...if it exists...because here on earth....cash rules...still dont nothing move but the money.
in fact heres a better plan: why not go and teach in your own country?
expatlife26:
First of all i'm not a teacher, I dont care who works in teaching or makes what doing it.
Second if I wanted to work in a all white market, why would be I in china?
I'm just a fan of economics and wanted to start a discussion on what I see is a misconception about how the world works. Mission accomplished btw I think this has been a really good thread.
I'm not being condescending, but if you don't want to read my posts on labor economics then don't leave angry comments on what you're assuming I said.
im afraid the economics at play here is supply and demand. why on earth would a teacher from kenya fly all the way here to earn what they earn back home?
This goes back to my earlier question: Mainland or hong kong?
http://www.edb.gov.hk/en/sch-admin/admin/about-sch-staff/net-scheme/recruitment-primary-net.html
check it out for yourself
The applicant should be a native-speaker of English or possess native-speaker English competence ^.
Preference will be given to applicants with experience in teaching English as a second/foreign language.
not this racist rabble that is peddled by people like you.
Bottom line is in China they just have to get even non native speakers because there is a demand for foreign teachers.
It is about more than just teaching English. It is also about teaching the culture of the civilized work and knowing what makes it go round. The Chinese want to know about the civilized world, because this is where they send their children to, where they travel to for holiday and where they do business.
Besides English, what useful skills can the typical Kenyan or Ghanaian, or anyone from Africa teach them? How to build a grass hut or hunt wild animals?
Before I get called a racist again, I am from South Africa and it was not my English speaking abilities (it is better than my colleagues from other "English nations") that got me the job , but my experience in the world of business and traveling and living in all corners of the world, including native English speaking countries. I do not consider myself an English teacher, but rather a teacher of knowledge and skills, that happens to be taught in English. So you can ask the question, can non-native speakers, especially from Africa, do that? Can you ask a Kenyan how to go about studying in Australia or to travel to Canada?
RiriRiri:
I'd say some probably can but they aren't the safest bet.
No worries, being called a racist these days kind of equates stating a bunch of simple truths.
Iron12:
No you are not a racist you are flaming Idiot...an Idiot abroad. Ha ha, you think being white south african means you are well travelled? Theres Kenyans and Ghanaians all over the world even in expensive universities. What can chinese students learn from a boer? How to make biltong??
Eitherway, ive come across africans all over the place in China teaching and doing business. Theres African entrepeneurs in shenzhen, hong kong, guangzhou, shanghai....as much as you hate it, this is the real truth.
You are speaking out of hatred for the black man because ththeres an apparent "white genocide" in south africa right now. Fear of retribution, fear of a black planet. Your hatred will consume you. Rember apartheid?
Iron12:
What can the kids learn from you? Apartheid, biltong, boerwors, brandy and coke, calvinism? What???
Believe it or not ive met more intelligent, well travelled, wealthy and probably better looking than you. Who would the kids choose? A trailer park redneck or someone who looks like Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan????
Wake up!!!
Iron12:
"Culture of the civilized world" you straight out of Alan Quartermain's freakin book right? Its 2015 for crying out loud!! The All Blacks gave The Boks a good thrashing recently.
Do you think you are the only well travelled?
I know of an african business man in the south who has 7 chinese employees and come christmas time he takes them all for holiday to colombia or indonesia...
My point is that dont look down on these Africans....open your eyes
Iron12:
Besides English, what useful skills can the typical Kenyan or Ghanaian, or anyone from Africa teach them? How to build a grass hut or hunt wild animals
If you are so educated and civilized, how can you say such a thing?
I might have anger against white trash like you but you have something worse its called "Hate"
expatlife26:
Hey now Iron12. You can call us devils and blame us for exciting conflicts such as the boer war all you like, but i'll damned if I sit here while you insinulabel anything poor about beloved Calvinism.
For shame, sir
I am not an economics expert but would like to contribute...
take the example of a house .. one house can be worth 1 million rmb while the bigger house next to it could be more than 50 million rmb.. why? because they are different in size, age, luxury, facilities etc.
Similarly wages can be set for people belonging to different nationalities. one teacher gets more because he got more qualities and vice versa..
one profit from this will be that English speaking Chinese will increase rapidly. when I ask chinese people why dont you study english the most common reply is because they dont have enough money to take classes.
Not with you on this one. You mention supply but hardly demand in your development. Not sure legalized Kenyans in infinite supply would be preferred to North Americans or Europeans in teaching positions anytime soon. I wouldn't worry about that if I was a teacher anyway. There would be an adjustement in the market maybe, with a broader low-end segment, but certainly not a complete revamp.
And like yongge said, there's more to it than English, there's also the general attitude, knowledge, and a bunch of extra stuff I don't think non-"westerners" can deliver (and those who can would probably reach for an equivalent salary figure)
And I tend to think they do pay more for whiter skin. For reasons already debated many times.
People should also take into considerations the education systems in developing countries tend to be of better quality. Perhaps they would prefer to pay for someone with a higher quality education. Someone who can then pass on knowledge and 1st hand experience of the education system that the students would one day like to join.
Shining_brow:
Perceived "developed" nations!
There is ignorant, uneducated in the US, UK, Canada, NZ, Australia, etc... and there are highly educated and highly skilled in every country in Africa...
The REAL problem is stereotyping... instead of looking at the teacher, they look at the skin and the passport! (in that order!) And, often, not even the passport - except to see if the salary can be lowered!
Minimum wage scale, developed, underdeveloped country --- it is all immaterial.
It is not important if your grammar is immaculate or you know thesaurus by heart .......
The gist of the matter is that Chinese love to learn their English from native English speakers.
And they are ready to pay for what they want !
No need to understand deep economics involved in this....
its simple demand and supply ratio .... !!
Shining_brow:
You've missed an important point... even native language speakers from the Big 5 don't get the job unless they look the part - the part that the locals want! If you're not of caucasian ancestry, you're a 3rd or 4th generation Korean, or Japanese, or Chinese, etc etc, you have very little chance of scoring a job here. It's NOT about linguistic ability - it's about racism - pure and simple!
Economics, much like facts, can not be racist. People and society can be racist, but an economy isn't a living thing...
Demand primarily derives from the parent's demand for English speakers from the big 5 (or 6?) English-speaking countries. That is the demand.
Are you actually saying the law forces the owners to hire Big 5 English speakers? Other wise ... Kenya! I largely disagree.
First of all, they're not going to change the requirement. There are many state schools that hire Big 5 English speakers because that's what their customers want. Many of these schools are owned by influential people who have every intent to continue a successful business model. Just like anyone else would.
Abolishing the law would create a black market. Most of the demand for Big 5 teachers would remain.
Yes, there are others working in China now. More often than not they work in places and positions and for salaries others may not consider. If it is working so well, the business would rapidly change starting yesterday. This business will not shift dramatically, like the Kenya example, because It would conflict with other goals and entrenched interests, and it simply would not meet the customer's demands. The parents and students stand on the demand side of this equation, not a law.
The law may increase demand, but parents and students drive demand.
'They' can hire a boatload of Nigerians now. Why don't they? It would never happen at my school. They know the classrooms would be empty.
So yea, I agree it is about supply and demand, but I have a different approach.
Well yeah, as my job requires me to work with schools and hiring Foreigners, I know the true reasons why they want White people only.
It's not the schools but the parents and the students who demand White faces above other faces.
In the mind of your average Chinese (also works for Japan, Korea, Taiwan and pretty much all of Asia) White/Western countries are rich and prosperous, the rest of the world is relatively poor.
Also English comes from England, a country that has been populated at 100% by White people until very recently.
The schools and centers of course could hire non-White teachers, one's ability to teach English (or another language) is in no way related to one's race.
But then the classrooms would be empty and there wouldn't be any profits to pocket for the owner.
At the end it all comes down to money, education in China is a money making machine and if there is no profits, don't bother with it.
I was thinking more about this, and what gets me is the ingrained fear of migrants, fear from one group of migrants of another group.
This whole migrant fear is of course the mainstay of the right wing western media.
Its human nature of course, but it is ironic.
I don't mean this is a bad way expatlife. Because you do bring up an interesting point.
I have seen the same sort of thing in the UK where British kids of migrant parents call for cuts on migration. I wont call the kids of migrant parents second generation migrants because I consider that wrong. I call them British.
RandomGuy:
Same thing in Germany, the offspring of migrants, especially Turkish, are the most anti-immigration people around, really weird.
expatlife26:
Scots I think you're purposely reading something into what I wrote that isn't there. I'm not afraid of migrants and I have no stake in the ESL market.
Haven't you ever met somebody from like Senegal or hell even Russia this isn't a white/black thing that makes good money doing private tutoring kinda claiming they're canadian or something? I admire those people. They bust their ass and hustle to get the best they can for themselves.
So i disagree with everybody saying that "Oh it's the chinese who are too racist to hire them!" Because that's not true. You meet people who do that successfully so yes it is possible.
My point is that IF they made it easy & legal to do that, that person's situation would deterioriate because the market would be flooded because unemployment is insane in a lot of these countries.
I'm not making a value judgement one way or the other. I'm just describing what I think would logically happen. It's kinda like a pot dealer who wants weed legalized to get the cops off his back. I totally support weed legalization but the dealers are the ones who would get screwed!
silverbutton1:
I classify people into 3 categories more or less:
1) indigenous/aboriginal- people who have a very long lineage in a certain area.
2) native- people who are born in a country. (thus, since I was born in the USA, im technically a native-american, but i am not an indigenous-american!.)
3) immigrant/temporary resident- people not born to a country, and came from elsewhere. This category is confusing and tricky, b/c it also involves words like legal immigrant, illegal immigrant, alien,etc. Practically all of us expats here in China fall into this category, as we have Z-visa, residence permit, etc.
maybe i'm just a shitty writer/communicator because the meaning was lost to most readers I guess.
I have no problem with anybody coming and working here. I'm not a teacher what do I care?
But somebody who is complaining that they can't ge ta Z visa because they aren't from a native speaking country is delusional if they think their problems go away once it's legal to hire them.
ScotsAlan:
I know you had no racist intent with your question. It could have been worded better?
I agree with Expat on this one.
The market determines who is desirable as an English teacher. Right or wrong, it's how it is. Also the law. In theory at least ,you need to be from a select few countries in order to get a proper visa and if a school wants to operate within the law then your options are limited.
The market, and the law here has decided they prefer English teachers from whatever countries, and to get those those teachers will cost the school X amount of RMB per month. If you hire someone the market isn't looking for then the profits will be less, and so therefore the salary will will be less. Economics.
That's not to say I don't think Africans, or whoever else for that matter can't be great teachers. Of course they can, I've met some. It's just that the people who are buying our services would rather see a blond kid with blue eyes in the front of the classroom so the school needs to provide that.
And this is the reality schools need to work with. When you run a business and you want to stay in business, you provide what the customer wants, and stay within the law, or you go out of business.Economics again.
Me, I always wanted to be either an underwear model or an astronaut with NASA.
I could sell underwear to everyone given the opportunity, I have charisma and so much more, but I'm ugly and have a pot belly so nobody will hire me because people don't want to see me on the front page of a magazine, except a company specializing in underwear for the obese so I work with them for shit money even though I know I'm better than that. Is it fair? No, but that's the reality. They hired some idiot instead with abs who won't sell as much underwear as me. I just wasn't born with the right qualities for the job.
The NASA thing...I'm a brilliant pilot and scientist and I invented a time warp machine but I'm not American so I can't work for NASA. Stupid, law, it's not fair.
What do you do? Accept that life isn't always fair and circumstances will be against you, and find your niche somewhere else.
Whining about how it isn't fair is just a waste of time. If you decide to try to find your way in a job market that is biased against you because they need to adhere to market forces and the country's laws, then good luck to you but don't blame your difficult life on employers or any one else. You chose to get into this game that is stacked against you.
ScotsAlan:
You are opening this thread up stiggs. "Don't complain if things are stacked against you" Right. So you are saying injustices in the world are justified? I saw a story this week about a ten year old American girl who is challanging the US constitution. The constitution says only people born on American soil can be president. This particular girl was born in China, adopted by a US couple, and she is now American. So, although she is American, she is somehow a lesser American than others, according to the constitution. Her argument is that the place of her birth was not her choice, but that the country she loves is. I think she will win. Off on a big tangent there :-) Anyway. "tough shit" is an easy thing to say. I say it often. And it seems to be a sentiment backed up by western governments. "Next please. Where are you from? Syria...ah..sorry. You need to go home..,what's that? No we did not bomb your home...that was the other side" This whole concept of certain countries having a better education than others is BS. If people want to learn, they will learn. To dismiss people because of where they were born or what system they went through goes against every single vein of the free market economy that Reagan and Thatcher set up. Deregulate.. Deregulate is the war cry. But they are actually saying... "deregulate us but don't deregulate them". It's a white privilege thing. China is racist.. Yes. But so is white privilege protectionism.
sorrel:
thumbs-up. It sucks that women are treated as lesser mortals and have lower pay than less qualified/experienced male FT's but that is how it is, and no amount of me saying anything will change that. SO I go where i am paid better for my time.
although now i have an image of an over-weight, pot-bellied under-wear wearing astronaut in my head
NASA - you don't know what you're missing !
ScotsAlan:
Why the thumbs up sorrel? Do you not realise that the people who want to keep the poor people in their place are also the people who want to keep women in their place?
sorrel:
@Scotsalan,
.......for calling a spade a spade. (sorry about the pun)
Unlike many other countries outside of China where one person can gather support to fight an injustice or a retarded way of thinking, China is not like that: China is about not rocking the boat and being harmonious otherwise watch your step (unless you are connected).
We know that is the way it is and China seems not to want to change, so what is wrong about calling it as it is?
It is racist, it is sexist and as sure as anything, it will not change because the powers that be won't want to deal with the consequences of opening up the country even more. As it is there are more restrictions on the internet and more censorship (for increased harmony).
It is all about control within China.
As Stiggs says, as much as he wants to be a male model, he knows it is unlikely to happen given the demands of the market and no amount of bleating will change anything.
Even if 20 or 50 people want to see him on the cover of a magazine wearing the latest speedo's, the fact that the owners of the magazine believe that such an image will probably lose them business will mean that they won't hire him.
And all that i would get from complaining about sexist hiring policies and pay in China is being labeled a 'feminazi' - so i go to where i get the pay i feel i deserve.
Stiggs:
What I'm saying ScotsAlan is that when you make supplying something people don't want to buy your business- in this case English instruction from teachers outside of a few countries - don't be surprised when you have trouble finding a job. Especially when a lot of the schools can't even legally hire you.
It's for this reason you don't see a lot of hard rock bars hiring concert pianists to entertain the punters. Nobody there would want to see them and it would be economic suicide for the bar to do it so all those concert pianists out there trying to get a gig in a rock bar may want to adjust their expectations.
Yeah there are adopted kids from China and refugees from Syria being treated unfairly and if you're lucky enough to be born in country X rather than country Z your life will be a lot better..... the world is a sick place, I can't change that but it has no relevance to what I'm saying.
expatlife26:
both the "Don't complain when things are against you!" and "Never accept an iota of injustice!" mindsets are both flawed when taken to an extreme.
i always thought a wise person can compartmentalize their feelings on both.
On the one hand if no one ever stands against injustice, nothing positive would ever change. But if you go too far on that you become a useless, angry person who spends all their energy blaming others instead of improving themself.
And you can't always just handwave injustice by saying to be grateful and do your best, either. Cause you can take that right down to telling a slave to be grateful his master doesn't make him eat poop soup anymore.
However, I think a successful, industrious person leans more toward the 2nd mindset than the first. There can be a dozen reasons why things are harder for you than for somebody else. But the only possible reason for you to say that you succeeded anyway is because you personally overcame those challenges. The people who "make it" spend more time looking in the mirror than they do pointing the finger.
Shining_brow:
NASA - Not Another Swimwear Advert... :p
However Stiggs, you had the option of not having a beer-belly... the Kenyans and Syrians didn't have an option of not being Kenyan or Syrian.
(just looking at the holes in the argument - before I post below)
Stiggs:
@Shining_brow. Yeah fair comment. Maybe if I get abs and a lot of plastic surgery I could sell my services as a model, The Kenyan or Syrian will have a harder time changing who he is so he can teach English. It's a tough situation for him.
My argument though is that if I can't provide what the buyer wants then I probably should just look elsewhere, unless I can convince the buyer they're wrong and they really do need my services.
Hey, some do manage to do that but from what I read, see and hear, a lot don't. If they do then good for them, I really mean that. But if they don't I have to say that they knew what they were getting into and shouldn't have expected it to be easy or for there to any kind of entitlement as far as getting a job goes.
We are all here selling a service and that business only exists if there is a market for it. Same as any other industry. If there isn't that demand- regardless of if it's fair or not - then there are no jobs.
It's market forces. We can bitch about it as much as we want but if we can't change it then the only other option is to accept that this is how it is and either try to work within those forces, or do something else.
Shining_brow:
I don't disagree at all Stiggs.
Although, with my current little project, in a way I could! I'm having to deal with marketing morons, and trying to convince them that my product is the BEST thing on the market (which it actually is!) - but unfortunately, this might take away some of their profits - marketing isn't interested in education. If the kids get educated faster, then they aren't giving as much money to the business... and so, the business doesn't want the kids educated! (not quickly, anyway.. they need a few bright sparks who do well so they can advertise them!)
So, yes, it is possible to change what people think they want... that's what marketing is all about - you don't want to give your money to them, you want to give it to us.
In a way, NNS are in a similar situation - they might be the best, but marketing won't push them - cos it's not about the education... (I think I'll do a full post, not just a comment).
If people from developing countries (non-native speakers) were allowed to obtain Z visas and work in China then the market for non-native English teachers would have an over-supply and would result in pay for non-native English teachers being very low - say 4,000 RMB a month or less.
This isn't going to happen because China won't accept it. China is racially homogenous and mildly xenophobic. An influx of any one type of people could upset the delicate harmony that supposedly exists. Imagine if America opened its gates to Mexico - chaos would ensue.
Borders, visas, passports exist to keep the status quo and protect accumulated wealth.
ScotsAlan:
Protect accumulated wealth at all costs. Fuck me. Do you get great enjoyment from driving your BMW down begger street? The world is infested by Donald Trumps.
Lord_hanson:
@scotsalan, look at it this way. The steel industry in Europe is collapsing and thousands of people are losing their jobs, why? China is producing too much steel and that devalues it. Now if hundreds of thousands of extra teachers came here to China then of course the demand for teachers would also reduce causing the average wage to lower considerably. Supply and Demand.
earthizen:
ScotsAlan, everyone protects his/her accumulated wealth. You protect your wallet and lock the door when you go out, don't you? Who doesn't? The issue is how you acquire your accumulated wealth. This is why an independent judiciary is crucial. If you rob, steal, scam to get rich you are hunted down and not being able to protect your accumulated wealth any longer. This is what is missing in communist china.
nzteacher80:
You misunderstood me Scotsalan. I didn't say I supported borders, visas and passports. I said that they were tools used to protect accumulated wealth.
Based on the three: Goods, Labor, and Capital. Globalization via the elite has more of less conquered 2 of the three...those being goods and capital. Labor is the last to be conquered, but make no mistake about it... it will be eventually. Take the EU as an example. I remember a UK friend of mine who was a plumber complaining that all the poles came to his country and destroyed the UK plumbers way to make a living. This of course is on a supra-nation type of concept. But this concept is still in the making, including possibly ASEAN, African Union, North American Union (NAU), etc.
I generally dislike expat26's priorities, and have no desire to date models or drive an expensive car, but it is kind of funny how he basically is just quoting Adam Smith adapted for the ESL market and it is upsetting some people.
-I want to be an underwear model, but I have a beer gut. And I'm going bald. Oh no, they are discriminating against me! They only hire sexy girls, oh so unfair.
-About the Polish plumber. The problem is that more labor means lower prices. So although the British plumber lost his job because a Pole will work for less, another British Homeowner saves money because he hires said Pole. Now the real problem is that a democracy requires a middle class. A Polish migrant worker is not an immigrant. So you have an out of work, pissed off British ex-plumber who is likely to need a social safety net. This is why protectionism is a good thing, if not taken too far. In other words make sure that even the poor people are taken care of, because stupid criminals and lowlifes breed like rabbits and make stupid people, who don't do anything useful, and have no skills, and engage in anti-social behavior. Better for the government to provide subsidiezed work for the lower IQ class. More social stability.
expatlife26:
Right...see we can agree on something.
One of the dumbest things I think is out there in the culture right now is this sense that if you're anti-immigrant you are by definition a racist scumbag.
If you're a working class joe you have EVERY reason in the world to be anti-immigration because it's bad for your family. It's a way to make sure that the labor supply always expands. Never any chance for upward pressure on wages.
But right now it's presented almost like this test of moral worth. Are you a GOOD person who supports immigration in or are you one of those scumbag fearful dinosaurs who is a bad person and full of hate?
And that's ridiculous and it's BS for the plumber who just wants to make a decent living to be put on the spot like that. Either you support policies against your family's interest or you're a bad person.
Sinobear:
Agree or disagree with expatlife26: he did produce a thread that generated discussion and points-counterpoints that make this a worthwhile forum (and for the record: I find myself disagreeing with him more than agreeing).
It's too bad that a lot of this forum's content is limited to sound-bites and diatribe (rhetoric, dogma, et al.).
Kudos, expatlife26, may you never find a cub in your backyard.
silverbutton1:
"But right now it's presented almost like this test of moral worth. Are you a GOOD person who supports immigration in or are you one of those scumbag fearful dinosaurs who is a bad person and full of hate?
And that's ridiculous and it's BS for the plumber who just wants to make a decent living to be put on the spot like that. Either you support policies against your family's interest or you're a bad person. " watch the movie "gangs of new york" if you havent done so. see how immigrants are dealt with.
It doesn't take a genius to know that allowing a half million people per year into a fairly ethnically homogeneous country like Germany could have some pretty massive problems. Frankly, countries like Brazil, Argentina, the US, and Australia could integrate such people better. After all, NYC works pretty well, and so does LA. But a little town in Bavaria, where people are all Catholic, Beer drinking, BMW engineers is going to have problems where Mo Mohamed Mohammed demands the right to stop selling beer at the local grocery.
-Or I can just stick my fingers in my ears, and yell racist! Seriously, guys, how do you even house an extra half million people? Give them free housing? I'd like free housing. Free education? Can we tax them? Don't some of these countries in the EU already have high youth unemployment? Somebody think of the children?
-For the record, I'd like to blame Bush and Obama for allowing the Middle East and Afghanistan to turn into violent cesspools that all normal people want to run from. Or maybe we should blame Islam, but that isn't PC.
Shining_brow:
Blaming Islam would be inaccurate... you need to focus the attention a little more.
White folks get paid more because we got guns first and went around the world murdering, robbing, enslaving and subjugating anyone who looked at us funny.
Our accumulated wealth and privilege is directly descended from us treating other countries like shit and taking what we wanted without asking.
I get paid well here in China because I come from a Western country. If my forebears hadn't have been murdering, thieving pirates then maybe I'd be getting paid as much as a Kenyan.
History did happen and this what we all have to deal with. I happen to have been born, through no fault of my own, a white male in a developed country. Lucky old me.
If I was to give advice it would be to try and not be born in a developing country.
nzteacher80:
"Developing country" is such a euphemism. Central African Republic and Afghanistan are developing countries but I don't think that I'll see them become developed in my lifetime.
Iron12:
Developing country and "developing personality" are 2 different things.
Poorly developed characters find it so easy to condescend and discriminate.
mature and highly developed characters on the other hand possess better qualities : irregardless of state of the Nation.
Barack Obama is the President of the United states, his father was from Kenya...a "developing nation"
Blow!!! take that!!!
nzteacher80:
I called white folks thieves, murderers and pirates. I was taking your side of the argument. Maybe you should read posts more carefully.
Iron12:
nuff said NZ, so we both agree something aint right here......and it aint really china's problem
rasklnik:
Blacks, Aztecs, Asians, and Arabs have spent plenty of time murdering people who looked different, they just forget to keep inventing things, and got crushed by western civilization.
The war is always lost by the side who fights the new war the same way as the last war....
Here's a question for all you 'White Privileged" people: how much does your home government pay you each month just on the basis that you're white?
My personal experience is that I could NOT get THE career that I wanted to pursue in my own country thanks to "affirmative action." ...because I am a white male (despite scoring in the top 3% of an entrance exam - so it's not just a lame excuse). My best friend could NOT attend teacher's college in Canada because he is a white male.
I never recall ever getting any financial benefit simply because I am white. I worked hard (and study endlessly) to earn a living. I neither expect nor demand any privileges based on the colour of my skin, the length of time my family has been in Canada, the contributions of my ancestors, my native language, my gender or anything else.
Methinks certain posters are playing various 'victim cards' whilst others are suffering from 'liberal guilt.'
Theodore Roosevelt said it best, "Do what you can, with what you have, where you're at."
yongge:
Well said. For a moment I thought you were from my country, as the discrimination against whites are so similar. I will NEVER apologise or made to feel guilty for being white and using my own skills to get what I want out of life.
expatlife26:
I think "white privilege" is a bit of a red herring. It's more accurate to think in terms of class privilege and that false perception of 'white' privilege does lead to some outrages like the kind you're talking about.
I'll use myself as an example. Both my parents are fairly successful corporate professional types... or were. One is retired now. So growing up with that, and attending prep school, being around successful people, having lots of travel exposure as a child made me take to working at a big company like a fish to water. Granted i'm also very smart, diligent and capable, but I have also all these soft skills to go with it. I do have an edge over someone equally skilled but lacking my cultural capital.
Now race-wise...i'm much likely to have had that being a white kid, but if you ran a regression analysis on my life performance so far I think the careers of my parents is the variable that moves the needle far more than my skin color. My results so far have MUCH more in common with the capable black children of capable black engineers and lawyers from my rich suburban home town than with the screwup white children of white screwups.
So I totally get why working class/lower middle class white people resent the hell out of affirmative action. They get all the penalties of white guilt, with none of the benefits of class privilege. I get that there is stuff like being less likely to be shot by a police officer...but really that's a stupid argument to make. Nobody has a great sense of self worth or life satisfaction because of that. It's just not how people think.
yongge:
expat, the problem comes when you have smart white kids from good families that worked hard and sacrificed a lot, then being denied equal opportunity because they are white. Tthat I resent.
I come from a good family, but it fell on hard times in my early years. I had to study part time to obtain both my degrees while working. Both my brothers did the same, one became a famous lawyer and one is the CFO of a big company in Canada. I worked hard to make a success in the corporate field, even though promotion was withheld year after year "to get employment equity ratios right". Funny thing is when I left my home country to work for the same company in a different country I got promoted almost immediately. I am retired now, just working in China for the adventure and to pass the time. To get in the finacially secure position I am now I never had the advantage of white privilge, everything I did and achieved was through hard work and overcoming the odds. So when people come with their victim attitudes, blaming everything except their own inability, I have the contempt for them they deserve.
Stiggs:
EDITED: Well said Sinobear. I'm sort of the same. I was born in a western country to caring , hardworking parents. There was certainly no wealth or connections in the family but I was raised well. I feel that's a big advantage. A lot of my friends can't say that. It's not a white privilege thing though, it's circumstances and luck. As far as white privilege goes, if it was paving my way I certainly didn't see it. I had to work my ass off for everything I have. Like you, I was told there's no point applying for the career I'd decided on because they were only accepting minorities at the time. OK, you move on and look at other options. Eventually I found myself working here in China and have been for a number of years. My situation is a lot better than it was when I arrived and I don't feel at all guilty about it.I took advantage of opportunities that were available to me through twists of fate and my own actions just like everyone does and honestly, people who want to call it white privilege can just fuck off.
Iron12:
Non Natives have to work 4 times harder than "native speakers" just to earn that 4000yuan or whatever and still further their studies, feed their families and reach out to next level away from this ESL drama.
Thats why i often times go Berzerk when confronted by this subliminal bigotry nonsense. These non natives work hard for good causes 99% of the time, whats your beef with them?
enough about this white this white that.
Apartheid died long time ago, Afrikaners/ Boers were put in concentration camps by the British back in the day during the Boer war, couldn't get your first pair of shoes until 13 years old. why project your insecurities and bitterness on the non Natives...in China of all places?
You are who you are!!! why be ashamed? what is is the big deal ? skin color is just skin deep .
My question is: why is ECC a platform for racist rants, China bashing, Arican lynching and this and that?
Sinobear:
@Iron12: Please scroll up to where I said the following, "
Sinobear:
Where I find most people missing the point on this debate is where parents want their kids to end up.
To simply improve one's English - any competent and capable speaker will do regardless of country of origin or native language.
Whereas most parents want to send their kids to the U.K, Canada, the U.S, Australia, etc., they want teachers who are representative of the target countries.
This is where the real racism comes into play - parents and administrators who cannot conceive of, or get their heads around, that black people and people of other ethnic origins can actually be representative of the target countries."
Iron12:
Sino, i really dont think you are a bad 'un, i say lets just have some beers and refresh
i'll leave you with this wonderful piece
Stiggs:
Iron12, please understand this... I'm really not trying to pick a fight here.
This topic is not African bashing, or anything like that. It's just saying it like it is.
The Chinese public and government have decided, right or wrong, that teachers from the 5 countries - you know which ones - are most qualified to teach their kids English. They had to make some work visa rules and that was how it was done.
This means teachers from elsewhere will have a harder time finding decent jobs, no matter what their qualifications and experience. I'm not saying it's not possible, just that it's not easy. I'm sure you know how bureaucracy works, there are always exceptions but generally it will be harder.
So if I,or another white guy happens to say it's harder for African teachers to get a job here, it's not being racist, I'm not having a dig at you, I'm just saying it like it is.
Non-native teachers are selling a service that's just not sought after in China, therefore the demand is less. It's economics, it's not personal..
Stiggs:
No, not at all, nobody is saying quit. Just don't take it personally, or as white people trying to hold you back if it's hard to get a job here. It's not like that. It's just that you're selling a service that isn't in big demand here. It's market forces.I can't change that, nor can you.
Shining_brow:
Expat... perhaps part of your calculations missed the comparisons about skin colour from a number of decades or even centuries ago??
Granted, class was hugely important, but unfortunately classism was still elitist, and for most of us, the lowest class levels were where the non-white people were.
(and before Iron goes being a moron again, I'm being historical!)
Since we are all being racist and stuff...
Didn't black Africans murder other black Africans in Rwanda?
Isn't Kony a black Africans? Who is he killing lately?
Wasn't Zanzibar selling slaves to Arabs, with the help of the local Black African slave traders?
If you are black, are you going to have a better life in racist NYC or the Gambia, Zimbabwe, or Somalia? Aren't black running from black Africa to racist white Europe in large numbers?
-We can't all be racist klan members can we?
nzteacher80:
My point was that the accumulated wealth of my country, and other Western countries, and the level of privilege that it affords me in China is built upon colonialism and the suffering of those that were subjugated. Aztecs, Africans and Native Americans may well have killed and subjugated others but it doesn't currently allow them to get a well paid English teaching job in China.
yongge:
nz, it is because they don't have the culture that goes with it, and the culture is what the Chinese admire, because it has led to white supremacy across the world for centuries. Looks like that era is storming to a close, self inflicted,
@Raskinik, you do know that the Africans killing each other is because of the legacy of colonialism and all the bad things the white folks did to them, so not really their fault.
RandomGuy:
Chinese too, all those wealthy Chinese running toward White countries but claiming China's superiority and Chinese pride (when it's not racial superiority), yet they do not want their kids to grow up in glorious motherland or among their fellows, ironic isn't it.
yongge:
Ironhead, don't you have something to do, like crawling in front of your Chinese boss? Go now, and let the white people talk.
yongge:
Point taken nz. Actually I consider myself not racist at all and try to treat all people equally, until they show they are not worthy of equal treatment, which most of the time happens along racial lines. as a matter of fact, I have quite a few non-white friends who I do not see for their colour, but for who they are, because they behave in a manner consistent with the civilised world, and respect my point of view
Isn't the fact that we have to bend over and pussyfoot around those that are not our race, out of fear for offending them and not being politically correct more racist, as it implies that they are not equal and should be protected? The very fact that we have different standards for different people is racist to me.
BTW, when ironhead called me derogatory names earlier in this discussion, I did not see a single admonishment, yet I am called a racist for reacting. No offence to you, but this is the downfall of our current civilisation, people measuring their own against the rules of civilised behaviour, but letting others off because it might be seen as racist to tell it as it is and we don't want to offend.
Iron12:
ahhhhh.....no agggggghhh no yongge, i think you are one of those elderly pedophiles come out to south china to do your do.....am i right?
this whole parade of im whiter than the next is NONSENSE, ive met some real genuine white fellaz that actually deserve praise for who they are......i dont think you are one of them,....let me not remind us of boer war....who ae you?
Iron12:
white people are the greatest ....like michael knight....but if they are racist it stinks.....thats a fact.....i will say it: white peeps are really cool, i watch star trek......but if they get discrimatory and spiteful like yongge, then they can proceed to helll ....but personally white peeps are cool they overcome obstacles in a cool way....thumbs up...for life
im a lover...not a fighter
yongge:
So white people are the greatest and it is OK when a black boy says it, but when a white says it, he is a racist?
You don't know me, so your poor attempts at making fun of me don't stick. all you do is showing your ignorance, stupidity and hate for white people. I think you were just a boy in South Africa who couldn't make it in spite of all the quotas, now you blame the whites. Grow up, man. I am actually getting bored with you, so have a good life and see you on another thread.
Shining_brow:
Q: who started slavery? Who kept it going? Who were the majority of the slave traders?
Iron12:
you have a point there...and i will humbly admit: some blacks and Arabs are actually guilty of that obscene trade
It's kind of unfortunate that a thread about the ESL market got sidetracked to the topics of racism, white privilege and colonialism. The fact is that none of these things matter when discussing the market for labor. Market forces dictate wages and any deviation too great from the market will result in unnecessarily high unemployment, inefficiency and poverty. Now don't get me wrong, there are ways to tweak the market in different directions with labor unions, minimum wages and anti-discrimination law just to name a few. But when the market is artificially distorted too much, people will be out of work and economic growth will falter.
When labor unions are too strong, companies can't afford to pay their workers and there are mass layoffs and bankruptcies. When the minimum wage is too high, companies hire fewer low wage workers and are forced to make due with fewer employees. When anti-discriination laws get so out of wack that Stiggs is on the cover of playgirl, magazines don't get sold 
. As much as Commies like Scotsalan want to change the ways of the world, at the end of the day people want what they want and governments shouldn't get in the way too much.
Now this is all pertinent to the discussion at hand. As countless people have said, Chinese parents want white faces from the major English speaking countries teaching their kids English. Schools therefore seek to employ these teachers. The schools pay as little as possible to attract people who are capable of doing the job well. By Chinese standards, this is a pretty good wage because no one in their right mind from the US, UK, Aus, etc. would come to China to work for 4,000 rmb per month. They'd be better off living at mommy's house working at a gas station or collecting food stamps and drinking shitty beer yelling at squirrels on the porch back home. The government law is basically along the lines of what the market wants - the government knows that people want native teachers and therefore sets a standard in line with market demands.
Now, if the market were to be followed entirely there would be no need for the government to regulate where the teachers hail from. In this case there would likely be more non-native teachers than there are now but the fact is that a blond blue eyed Canadian would still be in much higher demand than a black African of equal teaching ability. And as expatlife26 correctly states, wages for non-natives would likely be lower due to increased supply and still not so high demand. What would probably become more of a phenomenon would be non-natives pretending to be natives to garner higher wages. This happens a lot now but if the market were flooded there would be even more Russians masquerading as Americans. But would the salaries of native white teachers go down? Probably not much because they're still what the parents want.
Now is this all fair? No, but it's also not fair that some people are born with giant moles all over their face while others look like supermodels. The only way to change what people want is through education - convincing the masses that non-native and non-white teachers can do as well as natives. And the fact is that SOME can. But if the floodgates were opened to anyone who wanted to teach there would end up being lots of non-natives who could barely speak English trying to teach. Parents might not know the difference and schools could lie about their nationality, pay them less than a native and pocket the difference. With the standards in place, there's at least a basic requirement that teachers actually speak the language they're teaching (at least to a certain extent).
Iron12:
eitherway , your thread was invaluable in the sense of shedding some light on other expats' thoughts here...personally i think most would be better off in thailand pursuing their "lewd adventures" but as far as classes go, business as usual: with OR without white faces. That's how it is in China
I hear your argument and in a humble way i accept the fact that white peeps paved the way....but then again So What?
I love you guys but lets stop this ECC racism issue
dongbeiren:
@ Iron12 this is not my thread, it was started by expatlife26. As for some people on this forum being racist, yea some people come across that way sometimes but just because an opinion reaches a conclusion that the PC crowd labels as "racist" doesn't necessarily make it wrong. Whites paved the way? Not sure what you mean there, at least in terms of responding to my post. I never alluded to that in any way.
