By continuing you agree to eChinacities's Privacy Policy .
Sign up with Google
Sign up with Facebook
Q: Non-native teachers misunderstand economics
Listen i've said this before, and this only applies to people coming from developing countries, so not...say germans or koreans etc.
We always see these posts from people from poorer countries complaining that they can't get legal work visas to teach even though their english is good. What I think they miss is that if they could get legal work visas the jobs would get worse, as bad as it seems. The alternative is worse.
The best possible situation for a Kenyan for example wanting to teach in China for a good wage is the current one where it is very difficult but not impossible. You could make the same argument for a Moldovan too, any place where the local income is such that it's a no brainer to want to teach in China.
The reason for this is that the price level for english teaching is set by the official need to hire people from developed countries. They need to pay a minimum of around 10K RMB/mth to get any Canadians or Aussies to come here because the other options for them are better. It's NOT because God named the white man the chosen race and the Chinese love to pay them out of respect, they hate to pay them. But they HAVE to make teaching english in China more attractive than working at mcdonalds in England to get the people the law requires. Blame minimum wage laws in the west.
But if they could hire people from...say Kenya, legally as English teachers it would not be for the same salary. Good english speakers in Kenya are very common, but the unemployment rate is almost 40% and the GDP per capita is less than $1,500 per year.
If a kenyan could easily just go find work teaching english in China for over ten times their per capita GDP the market would be flooded immediately. Salaries would go down because there is no reason to pay 10,000 RMB to attract a Kenyan english teacher because that is superior to their other options. If they offered 2,500 rmb per month for all day everyday that would still be enough to be worth the trouble of many people to move here.
Is this fair in a moral sense? Of course not. Its just economics. If it was legal to issue Z-visas for english teachers from countries such as Kenya it would not create a world of great jobs for them, it would only destroy the decent jobs that exist for people from developed countries.
Also, don't think for one second that local employers pay 10,000 RMB + to an American because they admire their beautiful white skin. They pay the absolute minimum they think they can to hire the person they think they need. If there was a poor, white, exclusively english speaking country where they could legally hire teachers at 2000 RMB/mth they would do it every time over hiring an American for 10000.
The only reason that any non-native can make good money here is because the system makes it hard for them. So I get that it can be really frustrating, but understand the alternative is much worse.
I say more power to them if they want to work you know? Nobody should read this as me putting anybody down or acting like they don't deserve to work. There's no DESERVE in wage economics. There is COMMAND. You COMMAND a high wage via your bargaining power. Unless you want to personally take credit for western labour activism from the victorian era or something.
So I guess what i'm saying to these guys is just try and make the best of it and do the best you can to make your $ while you can.
Minimum wage scale, developed, underdeveloped country --- it is all immaterial.
It is not important if your grammar is immaculate or you know thesaurus by heart .......
The gist of the matter is that Chinese love to learn their English from native English speakers.
And they are ready to pay for what they want !
No need to understand deep economics involved in this....
its simple demand and supply ratio .... !!
Shining_brow:
You've missed an important point... even native language speakers from the Big 5 don't get the job unless they look the part - the part that the locals want! If you're not of caucasian ancestry, you're a 3rd or 4th generation Korean, or Japanese, or Chinese, etc etc, you have very little chance of scoring a job here. It's NOT about linguistic ability - it's about racism - pure and simple!
This has been, in its own way, the most intellectual thread in a long time...
ok how about if a non native earns 10,000yuan??? do u guys cry fowl???
or is this guy just good at what he does....because , this is a fact....ha ha haha
yongge:
ironhead, native means a native English speaker from a country inhabited by people who originally came from Europe, not a native of Africa. So if you are a non-native speaker, you could be a native. So are you a non-native native? Get it? BTW, it is foul, not fowl.
yongge:
10k doesn't mean much in the rest of the world, but I am honestly glad for you if that is what you earn. If you had been working for me, you would have earned less.
Shining_brow:
Ok - i know a few 'non-native' English teachers here, who are earning that sort of money.
I have no problem with it - iF their English and teaching abilities are worth it!
Similarly, I would expect a native English speaker to only get 10K if their English and teaching abilities are worth it!
However, marketing and 'face' tend to be far far more important than actual ability :(
Movies! The best looking pair gets to play the lead role and gets all the mainstream attention and all the dough. Why do you think that happens? There are so many character actors, those are in many cases better than the main pair, but nooo! We go see the people who are on the billboards. They are often the most good-looking ones in the Movie, isn’t it? Do you see where I am going with this? Is that being partial to the all the other actors in the movie? What is word for people who are partial towards the appearance? Are we all_*insert that word*__? its as simple as supplying what the end user wants...
Karma101:
And I agree, complaining about it is wrong! You don't see other actors complaining they couldn't get the part, they work and ultimately get it... Its difficult but not impossible!
So, in my mind, the obvious question is - why is the law regarding nationality, and not qualification? (other than the obvious - anyone can fake a degree)
Surely, the logical (bwahahahaha) law would be to set minimum qualification levels for teachers. Now, how would that effect the market? The young kids from the US, Can, UK, etc - who have never set foot inside a classroom are now in competition with the qualified and experienced teachers from Kenya, Nigeria - Moldova and Russia!
However, I think a couple of things have been overlooked (well, one has) - no-one has mentoined the number of jobs taken by the natives from the big-5 (or less) that are working for 5K at universities. I was one of those.
2 - briefly suggested - it's not the passport that matters - it's the skin first! So many with the right passport can't get the job, because they don't have the looks. So, in reality, it rarely has anything to do with 'culture' or 'accent' or whatever - it's purely about the look! Which is why those Russians etc are coming here and getting jobs - jobs that even native speaking and fully qualified teachers can't get because they don't have the right look!
Q: Expat - and this really is what it all boils down to - would parents prefer to not have their kids taught English at all, rather than have an African, Indian, Asian, whatever face?? Do those ethnicities rate higher than locals? How much does linguistic ability really matter here??? This is the market force to consider!
It's nothing to do with the GDP of the home country.
It's all to do with the employment laws of the host country.
If a country has a minimum wage, anti discrimination laws etc, then the pay for the job is the same, no matter the birth country of the employee.
China has very few laws on discrimination that it actually enforces, if any.
A black,one armed Somalian lesbian refugee, flipping burgers in New York, is entitled to the same wage and employment protection as a Mayflower descendant doing the same job.
This is what separates developed from developing countries. Or indeed, rich countries that refuse to pass anti discrimination laws.
If you choose to live and work in China, then you are living and working outside of your home countries anti discrimination laws.
You are a migrant.
You are not an "ex-pat", here to help develop the economy.
You are a migrant being taken advantage of by an unscrupulous Chinese capitalist.
I see jobs advertised all the time... Native speakers.. 5k, 6K.. maybe even 10k.
I see these adverts and think... oh my God.. who will work for 500 quid a month? But people do. And it's fine if you have rich parents and are doing your gap year thing. But for people to live on that long term? Wow. The minimum wage in Guangdong is about 2600 RMB at the moment, and qualified native speaking teachers are applying for jobs at 5000 RMB?
The enemy is not the Kenyan, or Indian or Russian non native speakers who you fear will undercut you.
Your real enemy is you. Because you are not standing up for your rights to be paid a developed country wage for being a qualified developed country teacher.
That's economics. You vote with your feet. You go to where you get the biggest buck with your skills. You don't go to a low cost country with no anti discrimination laws and complain because lower cost people are working for less than you.
People from low GDP countries understand economics very well. If you want a higher wage for the same job, go to a higher GDP country, then send the money home. And your family will live a better life because of it. And yes, live 10 people to a room, because a buck sent home is worth twice as much to your family as it is here.
Economics suggest that migration should be from lower GDP to higher GDP.
It does not work if you have high GDP people moving to low GDP non regulated countries and competing with people from even lower GDP countries.
That model only works if you have a skill set that sets you apart from both the locals and the lower GDP migrants.
See what I mean?
expatlife26:
Look, I'm not a teacher scots. I am not in any way against non-natives coming here and teaching. Seriously. If you read my post and my follow ups there is not one thing against these guys. I ever said I admire them a couple times for finding a way to make good money.
As for me I do have that skill set which sets me apart. I don't care about migrants one way or the other taking my job.
My thread is only about how if there was a legal mechanism for hiring large numbers of people from very poor countries in China the conditions would become abysmal for them extremely quickly.
For example I think the situation in the middle east with the south asian laborers would be a good example of what happens. I mean hell look at how provincial migrants are housed and treated here. But that in Qatar if they were forced to hire Germans or Aussies or something to build their stadiums the conditions would be much better. That if a handful of Pakistanis could sneak into a system designed for employing Germans or Aussies their conditions would be roughly the same.
But that as long as the system is designed to take in desperate people from very poor places with no options, the cruel world we live in will treat them as such.
So be careful what you wish for.
expatlife26:
btw though, thanks for participating. This has been a really fun thread! Love to debate with smart people and don't get much chance too.
Have a good weekend my friend.
ScotsAlan:
The world would be a bit boring if everyone agreed with each other :-)
I just realised there's another element missing - or not...
There is this perception that the locals don't want the NNS speakers - at least, the one's who don't have white skin...
I don't think this is entirely true. I think, like the hate, it's being kept alive by various vested forces.
I have a product about to hit the market, and it's the best product of its type - hands down!!! And yet, the marketing departments are a little loathe to take it up.
The reason for this slackness is simple - money! If the kids get educated faster, better, then they wont' give as much money to the schools (cos they're not there as long).
Now, to us, it seems a good idea (certainly long-term) to have a good reputation, and the reputation is what counts. Not here! Here it's only the RMB... and if they can't get a lot of that in a short time, they're not interested.
So, while the NNS teachers are quite proficient, it's not proficiency that the schools are looking for. The only way that 'proficiency' is going to be used here is if someone's been awarded for it, or has the right letters or name.. the letters M.A. or M.Litt, or Ph.D. or whatever... and the names "Harvard", "Cambridge" etc.
So, if that Kenyan (why do people pick on Kenyans? Their English is fine!!) of Syrian can work here easily - IF they went to Harvard! (even if their English totally sucks, and no-one can understand them!)
It's marketing that's controlling the market forces...
And remember the Chinese translation of 'marketing' - propaganda!
expatlife26:
i actually used kenya as an example specifically because there are lots of good english speakers there.
Saying it's entirely possible that there are lots of good potential english teachers living there
Iron12:
guys lets just have a jolly good time, while we are here, it makes cno sense this racist babble....Chinese need English speakers...full stop...not period!!
